Oct. 21, 2025
179: The Ricin Physician - Part 02
Listener, what happens when your home is destroyed in an accident and you lose everything? You have no home to go to, and are adrift without the people you love who you rely on to make difficult times easier to bear. You feel abandoned and alone. What happens if that ‘accident’ that destroyed your home and killed your loved ones wasn’t actually determined to be an accident at all, but something far more sinister, caused by the last person on earth you’d suspect?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Let's get on with it Welcome listener.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad you're here.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Take a seat next to the fire Welcome to obscure Where we shine a light on the dark
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[SPEAKER_01]: While investigators stayed at the house to carefully pick through the debris and determine the cause of the fire, police arranged for a stunned Deborah and a shocked and distressed Michael and Cade to be questioned separately.
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[SPEAKER_01]: According to the Solina Journal, even though Deborah and Cade were in the backseat of the same police car, they didn't console each other or even speak.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't until later that morning, after the dawn had broken when the home was considered structurally safe to search.
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[SPEAKER_01]: At the bodies of Tim and Kelly were recovered.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Kelly was found lying in her bed, curled up and appeared to be asleep.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She had died of smoke inhalation, even though the door to her bed were in wasclosed.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The body of Boomer, one of the family dogs, was also found underneath Kelly's bed.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It initially appeared that Tim had made it out of the bedroom.
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[SPEAKER_01]: While it was thought that Tim had almost made it to escape, the Kansas City Star newspaper reported that Tim's body actually had fallen through the ground floor after the second story flooring in his bedroom collapsed.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He had died from heat exposure and smoke inhalation near his bedroom, and the significant amount of burns to his body had all been sustained
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[SPEAKER_01]: Russell the Greyhound had also passed away in the inferno.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It was during Michael's police interview that he received just about the worst news possible, that his oldest and youngest children had perished in the fire.
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[SPEAKER_01]: As did the family dogs, as he grappled to come to terms with the news, the devastated father was open with the police about the difficulties in his marriage and home life.
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[SPEAKER_01]: including Deborah's drinking, and several threads she made in the past to take her own life.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Michael had also stated that his ex-wife had said she wished his girlfriend Margaret was dead.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That these dresses had been exacerbated by Michael's gastrointestinal illness.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Michael told the police that the marriage breakup was tough on Deborah, because she was very concerned about money.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Michael also stated that he felt Deborah may have intentionally set fire to the house, so she can make an insurance claim.
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[SPEAKER_01]: However, he had no reason to fear that she would ever harm their children.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Immediately following his police interview, Michael initiated divorce proceedings and applied for full custody of a surviving daughter, Kate.
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[SPEAKER_01]: However, Kate was explicit that she didn't want to live with her father.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So Michael's parents were awarded temporary custody.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The court considered Deborah to be incapable of caring for a daughter, but also took Kate's feelings into account about a relationship with her father.
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[SPEAKER_01]: After all, thanks to Deborah, Kate continued to blame Michael for making her mother so upset in the first place.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Deborah was also cooperative with investigators, telling police that the day before the fire she picked the kids up from school in the afternoon
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[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone came home to do their chores as usual.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Then Deborah took Kate to a ballet class before heading off to her own psychiatrist appointment.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Kate was excited about her role in the state ballet of Missouri's upcoming production of the Nutcracker, which her younger sister, Kelly, was playing an angel.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Michael then arrived at the family home to take Tim and Kelly to Tim's hockey game.
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[SPEAKER_01]: As previously arranged, Deborah corroborated Michael's statement, they dropped Tim and Kelly off at home.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Later that evening, Deborah stated that following dinner with the kids, she had a couple of alcohol and drinks before retiring to her bedroom.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Game Kelly went to bed, each taking one of the family's two dogs with them.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Deborah told police that when Michael moved out earlier that month, she moved back into the master bedroom, which is where she was sleeping on the night of the fire.
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[SPEAKER_01]: According to Deborah, it was in this room that she said she fell asleep between 930 pm and 1030 pm with the door closed.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She stated that around 11 pm, she woke to find him in the kitchen fixing a snack that they both went to bed soon after.
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[SPEAKER_01]: and a conflicting account later in the interview, Devartow Police, as she spoke to Michael around 10 or 10 30 pm, Bushy claimed called the house, wanting to know who had paged him.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Before she eventually fell asleep at 11 30 pm.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Devartow explained that her marriage to Michael had broken down, that they were planning on getting a divorce.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She stated that she wasn't upset about it, but acknowledged that Tim and Kate, especially were finding it extremely difficult dealing with the upheaval.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Several later changed the time that she last spoke to Michael, to between 11 and 11 30pm.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Deborah then said she woke up just after midnight to the sound of an alarm coming from within the home.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In her groggy state, she thought that one of the family dogs must have tripped the burglar of alarm.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So she fumbled around in the bedroom, and it attempted to save wood at the control panel.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But the stroll sound of the alarm continued to pierce the air.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When Deborah opened her bedroom door and saw smoke, she realized that it was the fire alarm that was sounding.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Deborah stated that she closed the bedroom door, and made her way out of the house through a sliding glass door onto an external tech that was connected to her bedroom.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It was after she made it to the deck that Deborah heard her son Tim on the home's intercom system.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Franigly asking his mother, what he should do?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Deborah knew that Tim had crawled out of his bedroom window on numerous occasions in the past.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But she told police that she advised Tim to stay in the house until fire fighters arrived.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She also told Tim that if he felt he needed to do something, he should go look for his younger sister.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Deborah then ran toward a neighbor's house, asking them to call 911.
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[SPEAKER_01]: By the time Deborah had returned to the house, Kated climbed out of her bedroom window, was standing on the roof of the garage.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Deborah said she yelled out for a daughter to jump, but admitted to not catching her, with Kaley landing on the ground.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Deborah had not sustained any injuries from the fire.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She told police that a no-stage was she ever in danger of being exposed to the flames, including when she was on the deck outside her bedroom.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I haven't told this point in the interview.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Investigators denoted that Deborah hadn't cried and, indeed, appeared talkative.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She'd been vague about certain aspects of our account, including times of particular occurrences, but she was adamant that the kids all hated their father for being unfaithful to Debra and then moving out.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Even suggesting that Margaret set the fire to eliminate the family entirely, so she could have Michael all to herself.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She didn't refer to her children by their names, but their ages spoke about Tim and Kelly in the past tense.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Police noted that at least an hour at past since the interview had commenced before Deborah asked about Tim and Kelly's welfare.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When it was confirmed that the bodies of Tim and Kelly had been located in the charred ruins of the home, Deborah initially appeared to be overcome with sadness, but in contrast to her ex husband, she became angry upon hearing the news.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She started yelling at the police and accusing the firefighters of not trying hard enough to rescue Tim and Kelly, saying, ''Christ, I saved one kid.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I could have saved another one.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'll never forgive myself for that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Did they even try?''
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[SPEAKER_01]: Debra became confrontational, demanding that she'd be taken back to the family home to see the damage for herself.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Debra was free to leave after a police interview, but obviously she now had no home to go to.
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[SPEAKER_01]: After borrowing some money from Michael, she went to a local motel, given there was no way her ex-husband was agreeing to have her stay with him.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When Debra's divorce attorney made contact with her later that day, Debra was said to be extremely distressed, and an unkempt appearance was repeatedly asking about whether her children had died.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Police made inquiries with Deborah's neighbors to ascertain whether they'd noticed anything unusual in the weeks, days, and hours leading up to the fire, as well as the night itself.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Neighbors did report that when Deborah knocked on their door during the fire to ask to call 911, they noticed her hair was wet.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Until police, they immediately suspected that Deborah was responsible for the fire, based under detached demeanor.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Two days after the fire that claimed the lives of her siblings,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Kate's paternal grandparents set in on her interview to provide support for their granddaughter.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Kate's obelis said on the night of the fire, she awoke to see smoke coming into her room, underneath her bedroom door.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She ran to the door, hand-yanked it open, calling out to Tim, who she can hear calling out to her from his room.
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[SPEAKER_01]: To keep herself safe, can you shut the door and cold 9-1-1 from a room?
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[SPEAKER_01]: But as she couldn't hear anyone on the line over the piercing noise of the fire alarm, she hung up.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This was the call received by emergency dispatch at 12-20 a.m.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Where no one was on the line.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Skipping through the door and downstairs wasn't an option, so terrified Kate took the only other route she could.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She climbed out of her bedroom window and did a chilly night air, and onto the roof of the garage.
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[SPEAKER_01]: With no idea where the rest of her family was, or whether they were alive, Kate squinted through the smoke, billowing outside the house.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Are I stinging in breath catching from the fumes and burning ash that weren't golfing the air around her?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Kay called out to her mother and hoped she'd get a response.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She thought a flood of relief when she heard her mother calling back over the noise of the wind and the crackling of the burning house.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When Kay searched the darkness for the source of her mother's voice, she realized Deborah had escaped and was standing on the ground.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Deborah called out to Kate to jump off the roof and into her arms.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But no other choice, Kay left off the roof.
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[SPEAKER_01]: but instead of Deborah catching her daughter, she missed and Kate landed on the ground.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, wasn't injured by the impact.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Kate told police that Deborah was terribly upset during the fire, and as she loved her mother, she felt was a good role model.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Kate told police that when Michael arrived at the scene, he started yelling accusations at Deborah, who was crying and desperate to find out what had happened to Tim and Kelly.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Kay was confused in anguish that Tim had a managed to escape out of the bedroom window.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Police asked Kay for some background on her parents' relationship.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now things had been at home prior to the fire.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Kay was in fact that she and her siblings loved their mother, and that Debra maintained close bonds with all the children.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Kay had also told police that she was angry with Michael for moving out, as an upset Debra so much she'd started drinking heavily.
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[SPEAKER_01]: painstaking examination of the scene of the fire revealed that most the extensive damage center around the upper section of the northern end of the house, which was where the children's bedrooms were situated.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They were significantly less damaged to the master bedroom.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Investigators found signs of an accelerant being poured on the floors of old stories of the home.
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[SPEAKER_01]: With a large amount, having been poured on the floor of the living room, the flammable liquid had been poured up the hallway of the second story and across the stairs leading from the first to the second story.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Effectively cutting off the stairway as a potential escape route.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The poor pattern of the accelerant led from the door of the master bedroom, which was not closed at the time of the fire, but opened.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The remains of the melted plastic were found on the floor throughout the house, which was evidence of accelerant having been carried to different rooms.
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[SPEAKER_01]: An empty container of charcoal lighter fluid was found on the floor of the garage.
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[SPEAKER_01]: On October 27th, Tim and Kelly were laid to rest at Highland Park Cemetery in Kansas City.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Their internment followed an emotional double funeral service attended by 300 people, morning the loss of two children.
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[SPEAKER_01]: with bright futures and infinite possibilities ahead of them.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But one person whose behavior didn't reflect the English shared by everyone else present was their mother.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Listener, we all understand that grief takes many forms, and manifests itself in different ways.
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[SPEAKER_01]: A mourners at the funeral were uphold by Deborah's behavior, detailed in the book, Better Harvest, Deborah swore it both Michael's father and the funeral director, while openly criticizing the funeral arrangements, saying, I don't need any more of this shit.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Shut the fuck up.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When a song chosen by Michael was played during the funeral, Deborah was seen sticking her finger in her mouth and pretending to gag.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The circumstances surrounding the fire gave all enforcement calls to classify the investigation as a case of arson.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In the Eastern Kansas multi-agency task force was called into investigate.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There was no doubt that the windy conditions of the night of the fire intensified the blaze.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The speed with which the fire took hold through the house and blue couldn't be solely attributed to an accident.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Accidental fires only have one point of origin and generally start in basements.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The two furnaces in the family home were located in the basement, where the investigators also found evidence of multiple unconnected smaller fires, as well as two electrical panels and water eaters.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This wasn't where the fire originated.
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[SPEAKER_01]: and are reported issued by the task force early in November.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Investigators noted that the fire had multiple points of origin, including a suspicious area of self-contained fire and a vanity drawer of the master bedroom.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Investigators deduced that the accelerant was between three to ten gallons of isopair offend, which is the chemical used in charcoal-wide or fluid.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The same fluid sold in bottles like the empty one found on the floor of the Ferrar's garage.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The evidence at the scene left no doubt that ours and was responsible, with him in Kelly's death, therefore considered homicide.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In the day he's following their deaths, a second task force was called in to commence a formal murder investigation, undercanceous law at the time, even without evidence of pre-meditation.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Whoever was responsible for the fire could be charged with a first-degree murder of Tim and Kelly, given their deaths, occurred as a result of our sin.
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[SPEAKER_01]: including in the potential pool of suspects where people who lived in the home, or had an intimate knowledge of its layout.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Given that liquid is cellar and was used, investigators knew that the person who lit the fire would likely have sustained sighing or burning when the blaze ignited.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Following forensic testing of hair samples and clothing that Michael and Deborah at each been wearing on the night of the fire, there was nothing to indicate that Michael had been present when the fire started.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There is no evidence of Deborah's clothing having come into contact with accelerant, but her hair was a different story.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The report by neighbors that Deborah's hair was well was consistent with what can happen when someone uses accelerant to start a fire.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When ignited, the vapors from Excel are a can create a flash which caused burns and cinching, which often prompt an arsonist to immediately doubt their head in water.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Despite Debra having cut her hair at twice since her police interview, there were significant signs that her hair was cinched.
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[SPEAKER_01]: As investigators dug deeper in the background of Debra and Michael's troubled marriage, they revisited Michael's previous concerns that Debra had attempted to poison him on multiple occasions.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Police decided to trace the packets of castra beans that Michael had found in Deborah's purse in September.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Officers trace the origin of the packets in the Romate Garden Center in a way though, through an written contact details contained in Deborah's address book.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It was also revealed that a second purchase of castor beans had been made on September 20th from a different Earl May Garden Center in North Kansas City.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When investigators contacted the store to see if anyone matching diverse description had made such a purchase, the store advised that in the month prior, a female customer ordered 10 packets of castor beans, which were at the time out of season, saying she needed them for a school science fair.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When investigators found that there had been no such science fair at the kid's school, teleauthories get to the bottom of any alleged poisoning, Michael provided blood samples to police, local testing failed to identify any sign of residual rice and in Michael's system, but the samples were sent to Washington DC for more sophisticated testing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Meanwhile, Michael's medical issues continue.
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[SPEAKER_01]: His previous repeated bouts of severe gastrointestinal distress and resulted in bacterial endocarditis.
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[SPEAKER_01]: A heart valve infection that results from ingest and caster beans.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Month following the fire, Michael underwent surgery when the result of the blood test came back, the levels of rice and antibiotics were so high that it was clear that Michael had ingested the toxin on numerous occasions.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That same month, news reports started to indicate that Michael had allegedly been poisoned, and that this was linked to the fire.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But authorities remain tight-lipped about who they believe were responsible for either offense.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The public didn't have to wait long for more details, though.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In November 22nd, Deborah was arrested.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She faced two counts of first-degree murder for the deaths of Tim and Kelly.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Two counts of attempted first-degree murder, in the cases of Michael and Kate, and one count of aggravated Arson.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In January 1996, a pre-trial show hearing was held.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Michael had given a videotape deposition a month prior to the hearing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The Kansas City star reported that a month-all in Michael Surgery, another procedure was required to treat the same bacterial condition, an injury and an abscess that had formed in his brain.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This time, there was a very real possibility that he may not survive the surgery to testify against his ex-wife.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thankfully, 40-year-old Michael pulled through the risky procedure and gave evidence in person, telling the court about Deborah's alcohol dependency, and that their marriage was loveless and uncaring.
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[SPEAKER_01]: With regard to the alleged poisoning, the prosecution presented evidence that Michael's gastrointestinal condition couldn't be attributed to anyone dying noises, but that his symptoms were all indicated for a repeated rice and exposure.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When it came to the fire, the prosecution asserted that Deborah had splashed a large amount of accelerant throughout the house.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So much in fact, then when she ignited it, her hair was cinched and her bathroom burned.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She ran her head under the shower and discarded a rope on the bathroom floor before running outside in her night gown.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The core heard of the large amount of poor and burn patterns found in the remains of the family home, indicated that a large amount of accelerates appeared to have targeted the children's bedroom, closing off any paths of escape.
20:24.838 --> 20:36.206
[SPEAKER_01]: The nature of the damage from the flames to Deborah's bedroom door, and the carbon at the base of the door, indicated it had been open during the fire, contradicting her account that the door had been closed.
20:37.066 --> 20:40.629
[SPEAKER_01]: Portions of Deborah's video tape police interview were played to the court.
20:41.509 --> 20:46.853
[SPEAKER_01]: Supporting the assessment of detectives that are made or at the time had appeared extremely out of the ordinary.
20:47.856 --> 20:56.500
[SPEAKER_01]: The core heard that as investigators picked through the wreckage after the fire, a novel was discovered on Deborah's bed, which he checked out at the local library.
20:57.380 --> 21:02.143
[SPEAKER_01]: The book was about several children burning to death in a house fire that was deliberately lit.
21:02.743 --> 21:05.624
[SPEAKER_01]: That wasn't the only recreational reading Deborah had been doing.
21:06.284 --> 21:13.228
[SPEAKER_01]: Her library records also indicated that prior to the fire, she had borrowed several books on intra-familiar homicide.
21:14.028 --> 21:20.093
[SPEAKER_01]: In other words, books about killing members of one's own family, Deborah maintained her innocence.
21:20.714 --> 21:30.321
[SPEAKER_01]: The defense placed the blame for both the fire and Michael's poisoning squarely on Tim, who, of course, was no longer alive to be able to defend such accusations.
21:31.102 --> 21:35.106
[SPEAKER_01]: It was claimed that Tim was motivated to destroy the house out of anger at Michael.
21:35.827 --> 21:45.757
[SPEAKER_01]: This statement wasn't exceptionally far-fetched, given Michael himself had testified that it is sometimes physically aggressive relationship with his son, was difficult at it best.
21:47.020 --> 21:53.304
[SPEAKER_01]: The Manhattan Mercury newspaper later reported that the Nanny who worked for the family for four years was approached by Tim.
21:53.785 --> 22:01.911
[SPEAKER_01]: One day in 1990, she stated that a year old Tim had confided in her that his parents were arguing so much that they were divorcing.
22:02.611 --> 22:08.213
[SPEAKER_01]: She also stated that Tim was so angry, he burst out that he'd kill his father and burned down the house.
22:08.933 --> 22:13.614
[SPEAKER_01]: The Kansas City star newspaper reported that the court heard that 1995.
22:14.214 --> 22:18.335
[SPEAKER_01]: Tim developed somewhat of a fascination with fire and explosives.
22:18.836 --> 22:23.117
[SPEAKER_01]: He liked to sketch bombs and rockets, even concocting Moltov cocktails.
22:23.817 --> 22:28.319
[SPEAKER_01]: Setting a fire and an neighbor's yard and carrying around fire-related paraphernalia.
22:28.339 --> 22:38.122
[SPEAKER_01]: Then Annie also added that on two occasions, she'd found Tim setting fires in trash cans, once in the basement, and the other in today in the Nani's kitchen.
22:38.809 --> 22:52.760
[SPEAKER_01]: The explanation for Deborah's unusual demeanor, both at the scene hand during her police interview, was that the medication prescribed to manage her mental illness, affecting her ability to respond to someone normally would, when experiencing traumatic events.
22:53.541 --> 22:59.365
[SPEAKER_01]: With the proceedings for the show hearing included, Deborah's arrangement was scheduled for early February 1996.
23:01.367 --> 23:09.016
[SPEAKER_01]: Following the show cause hearing, the prosecution announced they would be seeking the death penalty at trial, before the trial commenced.
23:09.737 --> 23:20.570
[SPEAKER_01]: And what was proving to be one of the most sensational and infamous cases in state history, both the prosecution and the defense made numerous requests to the court, but how proceedings would run.
23:21.471 --> 23:33.838
[SPEAKER_01]: In March 1996, Deborah's competence to stay in trial was evaluated by the Defense Psychologist, who later expressed concerns about Deborah's state of mind on the night of the fire, but declared her competent.
23:34.399 --> 23:36.840
[SPEAKER_01]: Deborah's bail remained at $3 million.
23:37.560 --> 23:42.924
[SPEAKER_01]: The defense applied to have the charges heard at separate trials on the basis that it was prejudicial to Deborah.
23:43.644 --> 23:50.028
[SPEAKER_01]: That the jury would be confused by the evidence and unable to make separate decisions when it came to the murder and poisoning charges.
23:50.845 --> 24:00.220
[SPEAKER_01]: But this request was rejected by the judge, who stated that the evidence in all counts overlapped, citing a compelling factual relationship between the charges.
24:01.242 --> 24:15.156
[SPEAKER_01]: As preparations for the trial commence, the defense knew that the key to raising sufficient reasonable doubt was discrediting the evidence of fire investigators, who were of the view that the fire was caused by arson, and conducting their own inquiries.
24:15.737 --> 24:21.722
[SPEAKER_01]: The defense found that at the time of the fire, Deborah's bathroom was wrapped in a ball on the floor of her bathroom.
24:22.363 --> 24:28.052
[SPEAKER_01]: Burnmarks on the rope were consistent with those commonly found on clothing worn when someone lights a fire.
24:28.613 --> 24:36.605
[SPEAKER_01]: This new revelation halted the attempt by the defense to provide doubts as to Deborah's involvement in both the fire and the alleged poisoning.
24:37.646 --> 24:48.530
[SPEAKER_01]: Paced with an uphill battle in terms of successfully defending their client, Deborah's lawyers enlisted the assistance of her divorce attorney to see if further information could be elucidated from their client.
24:49.170 --> 24:54.652
[SPEAKER_01]: Deborah maintained that Tim was the one who had poisoned Michael and admitted to starting the fire.
24:55.232 --> 24:59.614
[SPEAKER_01]: But was unable to provide further details as to how the tragedy unfolded or why.
25:00.926 --> 25:03.569
[SPEAKER_01]: In the end, the case wouldn't proceed to trial.
25:04.429 --> 25:10.956
[SPEAKER_01]: In April 1996, the defense advised the District Attorney's Office that their client wished to enter a plea bargain.
25:11.656 --> 25:13.858
[SPEAKER_01]: Debra entered what is known as an Alfred plea.
25:14.459 --> 25:18.042
[SPEAKER_01]: This type of plea is where it defended, maintains their innocence in a crime.
25:18.703 --> 25:24.488
[SPEAKER_01]: The police guilty based on the likelihood that the available evidence will prove their guilt be on a reasonable doubt.
25:25.188 --> 25:30.472
[SPEAKER_01]: For sentencing purposes, it's considered a guilty plea, but is not considered an emission of guilt.
25:31.213 --> 25:40.820
[SPEAKER_01]: At the plea bargain, Michael again attended court, only days after having further brain surgery to treat weakened blood vessels that left him at the risk of suffering or stroke.
25:41.837 --> 25:49.062
[SPEAKER_01]: At the hearing held at Johnson County Circuit Corps in Olaitha, Deborah fled no contest to two counts of capital murder.
25:49.782 --> 25:53.965
[SPEAKER_01]: One count of aggravated arson and two counts of attempted first-degree murder.
25:54.805 --> 26:03.530
[SPEAKER_01]: She read her prepared statement saying, I'm aware that the state can't produce substantial evidence that I set the fire the cause of death of my children.
26:04.331 --> 26:10.675
[SPEAKER_01]: My attorneys are ready, willing and able to present evidence that I was not in control of myself when Tim and Kelly died.
26:11.427 --> 26:19.592
[SPEAKER_01]: However true, that may be, defending myself atrial on these charges when only compound the suffering of my family, my daughter Kate.
26:20.252 --> 26:21.933
[SPEAKER_01]: I love my family very much.
26:22.553 --> 26:27.156
[SPEAKER_01]: I never meant to harm my children, but I accept the fact that I will be punished archely.
26:27.936 --> 26:32.939
[SPEAKER_01]: I believe that it is best to end this now so that we can begin to heal from our horrible loss.
26:34.080 --> 26:38.923
[SPEAKER_01]: The plea bargain would ensure that Deborah would avoid the death penalty in the event of a conviction.
26:39.905 --> 26:49.928
[SPEAKER_01]: Following the plea hearing, Deborah's defense reiterated to the media that she accepted full responsibility, but that her intent in setting the fire was not to kill her children.
26:51.208 --> 26:56.050
[SPEAKER_01]: On May 30, 1996, Deborah appeared in core first-sentencing.
26:56.980 --> 27:07.782
[SPEAKER_01]: The Defense Psychologist, who had originally assessed Deborah as competent to stand trial, testified that Deborah was cognitively competent and capable of controlling her emotion at a basic level.
27:08.542 --> 27:21.344
[SPEAKER_01]: But as she had an inability to process emotions at a more complex level, the core heard that the faces of Deborah's psychiatric admissions hospital were a diagnosis of either major depression or bipolar disorder.
27:27.405 --> 27:39.939
[SPEAKER_01]: The defense psychologist was of the view that Deborah had skit-solid personality disorder and told the court that Deborah had managed to maintain the veneer of being high functioning thanks to her level of intellectual intelligence.
27:40.660 --> 27:46.567
[SPEAKER_01]: But under the stain of her chaotic home life, her academic abilities failed to adequately mask her struggle.
27:48.108 --> 27:58.156
[SPEAKER_01]: to have received two life prison terms for the murders, two eight year terms for attempted murder, and four years for aggravated arson, all to run concurrently.
27:58.917 --> 28:04.902
[SPEAKER_01]: This amounted to a total 40 year term with no chance of parole, also known as a hard 40.
28:06.471 --> 28:11.632
[SPEAKER_01]: Following sentencing, Debra maintained that she had little memory of the events of the night of the fire.
28:12.592 --> 28:18.093
[SPEAKER_01]: Now long after she was incarcerated, she wrote to both Kate and Michael making various claims.
28:18.813 --> 28:23.954
[SPEAKER_01]: These included that she exceeded the recommended dose to Debra medications on the night of the fire.
28:24.835 --> 28:31.736
[SPEAKER_01]: The suggestion that Michael's girlfriend Margaret started the fire, ammaintaining that Tim was responsible for poisoning Michael.
28:32.997 --> 28:44.015
[SPEAKER_01]: Over the years, other diagnosis has been suggested with regard to Deborah State of Mind, including psychopathy, as well as borderline and narcissistic personality disorders.
28:45.178 --> 28:51.423
[SPEAKER_01]: In the year 2000, 49-year-old Deborah made an application to the court to withdraw her no contest plea.
28:52.284 --> 29:02.291
[SPEAKER_01]: She claimed that from the time she was arrested, her ability to comprehend the legal proceedings against her was affected, due to being under the influence of psychotropic medication.
29:02.992 --> 29:08.716
[SPEAKER_01]: However, her quest was withdrawn when she was informed that she had a retrial be granted.
29:09.377 --> 29:14.381
[SPEAKER_01]: Prosecutors were pursuers under the full force of the law by seeking the death penalty.
29:15.510 --> 29:22.535
[SPEAKER_01]: In 2004, Deborah filed another request with a court seeking a retrial in relation to the charges relating to the fire.
29:23.476 --> 29:32.141
[SPEAKER_01]: Her claim was based on the argument that advances made in the field of fire science related to ours in investigation since her conviction would prove her innocence.
29:33.026 --> 29:43.355
[SPEAKER_01]: However, the court determined that Deborah had failed to present any new evidence to support her claim that a charge of ours had been disproved and her request for a trial was denied.
29:44.275 --> 29:51.982
[SPEAKER_01]: December 2014, the Kansas City star newspaper reported that 63-year-old Deborah was seeking a new sentencing hearing.
29:53.262 --> 30:05.074
[SPEAKER_01]: Ever claimed her sentence was unconstitutional, citing a decision by the Kansas Supreme Court the previous year, which ruled that sentence as such as Deborah should be determined by a jury, and not a judge.
30:05.954 --> 30:17.045
[SPEAKER_01]: The following month, the Johnson County District Court determined that the ruling could not be applied to Deborah's sentence retrospectively, and that her case did not represent one of manifest injustice.
30:18.217 --> 30:26.716
[SPEAKER_01]: Demmer continues to serve her sentence at the Tepeca Correctional Facility in Kansas, where she is currently classified as a low-to-medium security prisoner.
30:27.935 --> 30:30.377
[SPEAKER_01]: Early as possible, release date is November, 2035.
30:30.817 --> 30:52.413
[SPEAKER_01]: Only three months after Deborah was sentenced, Michael faced two more hard surgeries, following the conviction, Michael and Cave faced a new struggle in rebuilding not only their shattered lives, but their broken relationship, one of the many long-term consequences of Deborah's behavior, and turning her children against their father.
30:53.540 --> 31:02.003
[SPEAKER_01]: Michael continues to practice medicine and remarried in 1997, but not a Margaret, a couple having parted ways in 1996.
31:03.564 --> 31:13.127
[SPEAKER_01]: At the cemetery where Simon Kelly's ashes are in turn, a poem by Mary Elizabeth Fry can be found poignally marking the children's final resting place.
31:14.664 --> 31:16.525
[SPEAKER_01]: do not stand at my grave in weep.
31:17.366 --> 31:18.186
[SPEAKER_01]: I am not here.
31:18.987 --> 31:19.847
[SPEAKER_01]: I do not sleep.
31:20.668 --> 31:22.309
[SPEAKER_01]: I am a thousand winds that blow.
31:23.009 --> 31:24.870
[SPEAKER_01]: I am the diamond's guilt on snow.
31:25.831 --> 31:27.752
[SPEAKER_01]: I am the sunlight on ripe and grain.
31:28.532 --> 31:30.053
[SPEAKER_01]: I am the gentle autumn's raid.
31:30.894 --> 31:35.296
[SPEAKER_01]: When you awaken the morning's hush, I am the swift uplifting rush.
31:36.237 --> 31:38.218
[SPEAKER_01]: Of quiet birds and circled fight.
31:38.958 --> 31:41.100
[SPEAKER_01]: I am the soft stars as shine in the night.
31:42.204 --> 31:44.268
[SPEAKER_01]: Do not stand at my grave and cry.
31:45.471 --> 31:46.192
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not here.
31:46.212 --> 31:47.955
[SPEAKER_01]: I did not die.
00:00.251 --> 00:05.894
[SPEAKER_01]: Listener, obscure I supported by listeners like yourself, my Patreon is only $3.
00:05.954 --> 00:21.162
[SPEAKER_01]: That's less than the cup of coffee, and if 10% of listeners join the Patreon, that would be a life-changing amount of money, I'm an indie creator, and I rely on listeners like you, but sometimes I'm not so good at creating calls to action.
00:21.643 --> 00:23.684
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00:24.164 --> 00:29.569
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00:29.949 --> 00:35.834
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00:36.294 --> 00:41.799
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00:42.139 --> 00:45.822
[SPEAKER_01]: That's patreon.com slash obscure a crime podcast.
00:46.082 --> 00:48.524
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00:53.128 --> 00:57.412
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's get on with it Welcome listener.
00:58.313 --> 00:59.233
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad you're here.
01:00.254 --> 01:09.842
[SPEAKER_00]: Take a seat next to the fire Welcome to obscure Where we shine a light on the dark
01:33.758 --> 01:45.488
[SPEAKER_01]: While investigators stayed at the house to carefully pick through the debris and determine the cause of the fire, police arranged for a stunned Deborah and a shocked and distressed Michael and Cade to be questioned separately.
01:46.249 --> 01:54.336
[SPEAKER_01]: According to the Solina Journal, even though Deborah and Cade were in the backseat of the same police car, they didn't console each other or even speak.
01:55.137 --> 02:01.184
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't until later that morning, after the dawn had broken when the home was considered structurally safe to search.
02:01.744 --> 02:03.967
[SPEAKER_01]: At the bodies of Tim and Kelly were recovered.
02:04.568 --> 02:08.232
[SPEAKER_01]: Kelly was found lying in her bed, curled up and appeared to be asleep.
02:09.113 --> 02:13.297
[SPEAKER_01]: She had died of smoke inhalation, even though the door to her bed were in wasclosed.
02:14.118 --> 02:18.879
[SPEAKER_01]: The body of Boomer, one of the family dogs, was also found underneath Kelly's bed.
02:19.599 --> 02:22.320
[SPEAKER_01]: It initially appeared that Tim had made it out of the bedroom.
02:22.920 --> 02:34.163
[SPEAKER_01]: While it was thought that Tim had almost made it to escape, the Kansas City Star newspaper reported that Tim's body actually had fallen through the ground floor after the second story flooring in his bedroom collapsed.
02:34.643 --> 02:42.045
[SPEAKER_01]: He had died from heat exposure and smoke inhalation near his bedroom, and the significant amount of burns to his body had all been sustained
02:43.605 --> 02:46.686
[SPEAKER_01]: Russell the Greyhound had also passed away in the inferno.
02:47.426 --> 02:55.188
[SPEAKER_01]: It was during Michael's police interview that he received just about the worst news possible, that his oldest and youngest children had perished in the fire.
02:55.908 --> 03:05.370
[SPEAKER_01]: As did the family dogs, as he grappled to come to terms with the news, the devastated father was open with the police about the difficulties in his marriage and home life.
03:06.110 --> 03:10.434
[SPEAKER_01]: including Deborah's drinking, and several threads she made in the past to take her own life.
03:11.095 --> 03:15.719
[SPEAKER_01]: Michael had also stated that his ex-wife had said she wished his girlfriend Margaret was dead.
03:16.480 --> 03:20.684
[SPEAKER_01]: That these dresses had been exacerbated by Michael's gastrointestinal illness.
03:21.345 --> 03:26.590
[SPEAKER_01]: Michael told the police that the marriage breakup was tough on Deborah, because she was very concerned about money.
03:27.190 --> 03:33.455
[SPEAKER_01]: Michael also stated that he felt Deborah may have intentionally set fire to the house, so she can make an insurance claim.
03:33.995 --> 03:37.678
[SPEAKER_01]: However, he had no reason to fear that she would ever harm their children.
03:38.399 --> 03:45.804
[SPEAKER_01]: Immediately following his police interview, Michael initiated divorce proceedings and applied for full custody of a surviving daughter, Kate.
03:46.465 --> 03:50.028
[SPEAKER_01]: However, Kate was explicit that she didn't want to live with her father.
03:50.708 --> 03:53.289
[SPEAKER_01]: So Michael's parents were awarded temporary custody.
03:53.769 --> 04:01.651
[SPEAKER_01]: The court considered Deborah to be incapable of caring for a daughter, but also took Kate's feelings into account about a relationship with her father.
04:02.431 --> 04:08.612
[SPEAKER_01]: After all, thanks to Deborah, Kate continued to blame Michael for making her mother so upset in the first place.
04:09.853 --> 04:17.814
[SPEAKER_01]: Deborah was also cooperative with investigators, telling police that the day before the fire she picked the kids up from school in the afternoon
04:20.458 --> 04:22.720
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone came home to do their chores as usual.
04:22.740 --> 04:28.305
[SPEAKER_01]: Then Deborah took Kate to a ballet class before heading off to her own psychiatrist appointment.
04:28.986 --> 04:37.453
[SPEAKER_01]: Kate was excited about her role in the state ballet of Missouri's upcoming production of the Nutcracker, which her younger sister, Kelly, was playing an angel.
04:38.478 --> 04:42.661
[SPEAKER_01]: Michael then arrived at the family home to take Tim and Kelly to Tim's hockey game.
04:43.321 --> 04:49.226
[SPEAKER_01]: As previously arranged, Deborah corroborated Michael's statement, they dropped Tim and Kelly off at home.
04:49.626 --> 04:56.971
[SPEAKER_01]: Later that evening, Deborah stated that following dinner with the kids, she had a couple of alcohol and drinks before retiring to her bedroom.
04:57.672 --> 05:01.774
[SPEAKER_01]: Game Kelly went to bed, each taking one of the family's two dogs with them.
05:02.595 --> 05:10.801
[SPEAKER_01]: Deborah told police that when Michael moved out earlier that month, she moved back into the master bedroom, which is where she was sleeping on the night of the fire.
05:10.821 --> 05:19.628
[SPEAKER_01]: According to Deborah, it was in this room that she said she fell asleep between 930 pm and 1030 pm with the door closed.
05:20.329 --> 05:27.694
[SPEAKER_01]: She stated that around 11 pm, she woke to find him in the kitchen fixing a snack that they both went to bed soon after.
05:28.535 --> 05:38.820
[SPEAKER_01]: and a conflicting account later in the interview, Devartow Police, as she spoke to Michael around 10 or 10 30 pm, Bushy claimed called the house, wanting to know who had paged him.
05:39.480 --> 05:42.342
[SPEAKER_01]: Before she eventually fell asleep at 11 30 pm.
05:43.182 --> 05:48.365
[SPEAKER_01]: Devartow explained that her marriage to Michael had broken down, that they were planning on getting a divorce.
05:49.005 --> 05:56.227
[SPEAKER_01]: She stated that she wasn't upset about it, but acknowledged that Tim and Kate, especially were finding it extremely difficult dealing with the upheaval.
05:56.848 --> 06:02.529
[SPEAKER_01]: Several later changed the time that she last spoke to Michael, to between 11 and 11 30pm.
06:02.909 --> 06:08.051
[SPEAKER_01]: Deborah then said she woke up just after midnight to the sound of an alarm coming from within the home.
06:08.631 --> 06:13.413
[SPEAKER_01]: In her groggy state, she thought that one of the family dogs must have tripped the burglar of alarm.
06:14.053 --> 06:18.396
[SPEAKER_01]: So she fumbled around in the bedroom, and it attempted to save wood at the control panel.
06:19.016 --> 06:21.858
[SPEAKER_01]: But the stroll sound of the alarm continued to pierce the air.
06:22.838 --> 06:28.361
[SPEAKER_01]: When Deborah opened her bedroom door and saw smoke, she realized that it was the fire alarm that was sounding.
06:29.102 --> 06:37.267
[SPEAKER_01]: Deborah stated that she closed the bedroom door, and made her way out of the house through a sliding glass door onto an external tech that was connected to her bedroom.
06:38.007 --> 06:42.972
[SPEAKER_01]: It was after she made it to the deck that Deborah heard her son Tim on the home's intercom system.
06:43.553 --> 06:45.975
[SPEAKER_01]: Franigly asking his mother, what he should do?
06:46.856 --> 06:51.460
[SPEAKER_01]: Deborah knew that Tim had crawled out of his bedroom window on numerous occasions in the past.
06:52.061 --> 06:56.425
[SPEAKER_01]: But she told police that she advised Tim to stay in the house until fire fighters arrived.
06:57.206 --> 07:02.109
[SPEAKER_01]: She also told Tim that if he felt he needed to do something, he should go look for his younger sister.
07:02.709 --> 07:06.491
[SPEAKER_01]: Deborah then ran toward a neighbor's house, asking them to call 911.
07:07.012 --> 07:13.656
[SPEAKER_01]: By the time Deborah had returned to the house, Kated climbed out of her bedroom window, was standing on the roof of the garage.
07:14.176 --> 07:20.320
[SPEAKER_01]: Deborah said she yelled out for a daughter to jump, but admitted to not catching her, with Kaley landing on the ground.
07:21.260 --> 07:23.823
[SPEAKER_01]: Deborah had not sustained any injuries from the fire.
07:24.484 --> 07:32.253
[SPEAKER_01]: She told police that a no-stage was she ever in danger of being exposed to the flames, including when she was on the deck outside her bedroom.
07:32.273 --> 07:34.816
[SPEAKER_01]: I haven't told this point in the interview.
07:35.276 --> 07:39.681
[SPEAKER_01]: Investigators denoted that Deborah hadn't cried and, indeed, appeared talkative.
07:40.602 --> 07:51.988
[SPEAKER_01]: She'd been vague about certain aspects of our account, including times of particular occurrences, but she was adamant that the kids all hated their father for being unfaithful to Debra and then moving out.
07:52.768 --> 07:59.552
[SPEAKER_01]: Even suggesting that Margaret set the fire to eliminate the family entirely, so she could have Michael all to herself.
08:00.556 --> 08:06.500
[SPEAKER_01]: She didn't refer to her children by their names, but their ages spoke about Tim and Kelly in the past tense.
08:07.421 --> 08:13.425
[SPEAKER_01]: Police noted that at least an hour at past since the interview had commenced before Deborah asked about Tim and Kelly's welfare.
08:14.266 --> 08:27.115
[SPEAKER_01]: When it was confirmed that the bodies of Tim and Kelly had been located in the charred ruins of the home, Deborah initially appeared to be overcome with sadness, but in contrast to her ex husband, she became angry upon hearing the news.
08:28.194 --> 08:36.920
[SPEAKER_01]: She started yelling at the police and accusing the firefighters of not trying hard enough to rescue Tim and Kelly, saying, ''Christ, I saved one kid.
08:37.440 --> 08:38.721
[SPEAKER_01]: I could have saved another one.
08:39.141 --> 08:40.702
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll never forgive myself for that.
08:41.222 --> 08:42.263
[SPEAKER_01]: Did they even try?''
08:42.883 --> 08:49.447
[SPEAKER_01]: Debra became confrontational, demanding that she'd be taken back to the family home to see the damage for herself.
08:50.468 --> 08:55.891
[SPEAKER_01]: Debra was free to leave after a police interview, but obviously she now had no home to go to.
08:56.631 --> 09:03.415
[SPEAKER_01]: After borrowing some money from Michael, she went to a local motel, given there was no way her ex-husband was agreeing to have her stay with him.
09:04.296 --> 09:14.962
[SPEAKER_01]: When Debra's divorce attorney made contact with her later that day, Debra was said to be extremely distressed, and an unkempt appearance was repeatedly asking about whether her children had died.
09:15.842 --> 09:25.325
[SPEAKER_01]: Police made inquiries with Deborah's neighbors to ascertain whether they'd noticed anything unusual in the weeks, days, and hours leading up to the fire, as well as the night itself.
09:26.145 --> 09:32.947
[SPEAKER_01]: Neighbors did report that when Deborah knocked on their door during the fire to ask to call 911, they noticed her hair was wet.
09:33.627 --> 09:39.369
[SPEAKER_01]: Until police, they immediately suspected that Deborah was responsible for the fire, based under detached demeanor.
09:39.949 --> 09:42.890
[SPEAKER_01]: Two days after the fire that claimed the lives of her siblings,
09:43.550 --> 09:48.334
[SPEAKER_01]: Kate's paternal grandparents set in on her interview to provide support for their granddaughter.
09:49.035 --> 09:55.281
[SPEAKER_01]: Kate's obelis said on the night of the fire, she awoke to see smoke coming into her room, underneath her bedroom door.
09:56.142 --> 10:02.287
[SPEAKER_01]: She ran to the door, hand-yanked it open, calling out to Tim, who she can hear calling out to her from his room.
10:03.200 --> 10:07.122
[SPEAKER_01]: To keep herself safe, can you shut the door and cold 9-1-1 from a room?
10:07.963 --> 10:12.485
[SPEAKER_01]: But as she couldn't hear anyone on the line over the piercing noise of the fire alarm, she hung up.
10:13.206 --> 10:16.908
[SPEAKER_01]: This was the call received by emergency dispatch at 12-20 a.m.
10:17.468 --> 10:18.809
[SPEAKER_01]: Where no one was on the line.
10:19.689 --> 10:26.054
[SPEAKER_01]: Skipping through the door and downstairs wasn't an option, so terrified Kate took the only other route she could.
10:26.674 --> 10:31.618
[SPEAKER_01]: She climbed out of her bedroom window and did a chilly night air, and onto the roof of the garage.
10:32.359 --> 10:39.944
[SPEAKER_01]: With no idea where the rest of her family was, or whether they were alive, Kate squinted through the smoke, billowing outside the house.
10:40.805 --> 10:46.109
[SPEAKER_01]: Are I stinging in breath catching from the fumes and burning ash that weren't golfing the air around her?
10:47.379 --> 10:50.260
[SPEAKER_01]: Kay called out to her mother and hoped she'd get a response.
10:50.920 --> 10:56.541
[SPEAKER_01]: She thought a flood of relief when she heard her mother calling back over the noise of the wind and the crackling of the burning house.
10:57.181 --> 11:03.903
[SPEAKER_01]: When Kay searched the darkness for the source of her mother's voice, she realized Deborah had escaped and was standing on the ground.
11:04.563 --> 11:07.564
[SPEAKER_01]: Deborah called out to Kate to jump off the roof and into her arms.
11:08.404 --> 11:10.905
[SPEAKER_01]: But no other choice, Kay left off the roof.
11:11.980 --> 11:16.582
[SPEAKER_01]: but instead of Deborah catching her daughter, she missed and Kate landed on the ground.
11:17.282 --> 11:19.543
[SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, wasn't injured by the impact.
11:20.203 --> 11:26.565
[SPEAKER_01]: Kate told police that Deborah was terribly upset during the fire, and as she loved her mother, she felt was a good role model.
11:27.206 --> 11:36.029
[SPEAKER_01]: Kate told police that when Michael arrived at the scene, he started yelling accusations at Deborah, who was crying and desperate to find out what had happened to Tim and Kelly.
11:36.869 --> 11:41.213
[SPEAKER_01]: Kay was confused in anguish that Tim had a managed to escape out of the bedroom window.
11:42.073 --> 11:45.156
[SPEAKER_01]: Police asked Kay for some background on her parents' relationship.
11:45.496 --> 11:47.838
[SPEAKER_01]: Now things had been at home prior to the fire.
11:48.439 --> 11:54.463
[SPEAKER_01]: Kay was in fact that she and her siblings loved their mother, and that Debra maintained close bonds with all the children.
11:54.964 --> 12:01.829
[SPEAKER_01]: Kay had also told police that she was angry with Michael for moving out, as an upset Debra so much she'd started drinking heavily.
12:02.550 --> 12:13.877
[SPEAKER_01]: painstaking examination of the scene of the fire revealed that most the extensive damage center around the upper section of the northern end of the house, which was where the children's bedrooms were situated.
12:14.532 --> 12:17.534
[SPEAKER_01]: They were significantly less damaged to the master bedroom.
12:17.994 --> 12:22.837
[SPEAKER_01]: Investigators found signs of an accelerant being poured on the floors of old stories of the home.
12:23.497 --> 12:34.404
[SPEAKER_01]: With a large amount, having been poured on the floor of the living room, the flammable liquid had been poured up the hallway of the second story and across the stairs leading from the first to the second story.
12:34.424 --> 12:38.707
[SPEAKER_01]: Effectively cutting off the stairway as a potential escape route.
12:39.628 --> 12:46.953
[SPEAKER_01]: The poor pattern of the accelerant led from the door of the master bedroom, which was not closed at the time of the fire, but opened.
12:47.594 --> 12:55.280
[SPEAKER_01]: The remains of the melted plastic were found on the floor throughout the house, which was evidence of accelerant having been carried to different rooms.
12:56.140 --> 13:00.183
[SPEAKER_01]: An empty container of charcoal lighter fluid was found on the floor of the garage.
13:01.103 --> 13:07.368
[SPEAKER_01]: On October 27th, Tim and Kelly were laid to rest at Highland Park Cemetery in Kansas City.
13:07.988 --> 13:14.852
[SPEAKER_01]: Their internment followed an emotional double funeral service attended by 300 people, morning the loss of two children.
13:15.848 --> 13:18.973
[SPEAKER_01]: with bright futures and infinite possibilities ahead of them.
13:19.835 --> 13:25.605
[SPEAKER_01]: But one person whose behavior didn't reflect the English shared by everyone else present was their mother.
13:26.705 --> 13:32.790
[SPEAKER_01]: Listener, we all understand that grief takes many forms, and manifests itself in different ways.
13:32.810 --> 13:49.224
[SPEAKER_01]: A mourners at the funeral were uphold by Deborah's behavior, detailed in the book, Better Harvest, Deborah swore it both Michael's father and the funeral director, while openly criticizing the funeral arrangements, saying, I don't need any more of this shit.
13:49.705 --> 13:50.565
[SPEAKER_01]: Shut the fuck up.
13:51.346 --> 13:58.553
[SPEAKER_01]: When a song chosen by Michael was played during the funeral, Deborah was seen sticking her finger in her mouth and pretending to gag.
13:59.674 --> 14:05.920
[SPEAKER_01]: The circumstances surrounding the fire gave all enforcement calls to classify the investigation as a case of arson.
14:06.601 --> 14:10.504
[SPEAKER_01]: In the Eastern Kansas multi-agency task force was called into investigate.
14:11.384 --> 14:15.629
[SPEAKER_01]: There was no doubt that the windy conditions of the night of the fire intensified the blaze.
14:16.149 --> 14:21.455
[SPEAKER_01]: The speed with which the fire took hold through the house and blue couldn't be solely attributed to an accident.
14:22.276 --> 14:26.581
[SPEAKER_01]: Accidental fires only have one point of origin and generally start in basements.
14:27.422 --> 14:38.678
[SPEAKER_01]: The two furnaces in the family home were located in the basement, where the investigators also found evidence of multiple unconnected smaller fires, as well as two electrical panels and water eaters.
14:39.499 --> 14:41.221
[SPEAKER_01]: This wasn't where the fire originated.
14:42.138 --> 14:44.981
[SPEAKER_01]: and are reported issued by the task force early in November.
14:45.521 --> 14:54.389
[SPEAKER_01]: Investigators noted that the fire had multiple points of origin, including a suspicious area of self-contained fire and a vanity drawer of the master bedroom.
14:55.230 --> 15:03.097
[SPEAKER_01]: Investigators deduced that the accelerant was between three to ten gallons of isopair offend, which is the chemical used in charcoal-wide or fluid.
15:03.718 --> 15:08.242
[SPEAKER_01]: The same fluid sold in bottles like the empty one found on the floor of the Ferrar's garage.
15:09.276 --> 15:16.318
[SPEAKER_01]: The evidence at the scene left no doubt that ours and was responsible, with him in Kelly's death, therefore considered homicide.
15:17.078 --> 15:27.981
[SPEAKER_01]: In the day he's following their deaths, a second task force was called in to commence a formal murder investigation, undercanceous law at the time, even without evidence of pre-meditation.
15:28.582 --> 15:36.484
[SPEAKER_01]: Whoever was responsible for the fire could be charged with a first-degree murder of Tim and Kelly, given their deaths, occurred as a result of our sin.
15:37.324 --> 15:43.332
[SPEAKER_01]: including in the potential pool of suspects where people who lived in the home, or had an intimate knowledge of its layout.
15:43.972 --> 15:52.703
[SPEAKER_01]: Given that liquid is cellar and was used, investigators knew that the person who lit the fire would likely have sustained sighing or burning when the blaze ignited.
15:53.630 --> 16:03.556
[SPEAKER_01]: Following forensic testing of hair samples and clothing that Michael and Deborah at each been wearing on the night of the fire, there was nothing to indicate that Michael had been present when the fire started.
16:04.157 --> 16:10.801
[SPEAKER_01]: There is no evidence of Deborah's clothing having come into contact with accelerant, but her hair was a different story.
16:11.461 --> 16:17.785
[SPEAKER_01]: The report by neighbors that Deborah's hair was well was consistent with what can happen when someone uses accelerant to start a fire.
16:18.824 --> 16:28.368
[SPEAKER_01]: When ignited, the vapors from Excel are a can create a flash which caused burns and cinching, which often prompt an arsonist to immediately doubt their head in water.
16:29.108 --> 16:35.711
[SPEAKER_01]: Despite Debra having cut her hair at twice since her police interview, there were significant signs that her hair was cinched.
16:36.811 --> 16:47.015
[SPEAKER_01]: As investigators dug deeper in the background of Debra and Michael's troubled marriage, they revisited Michael's previous concerns that Debra had attempted to poison him on multiple occasions.
16:47.941 --> 16:53.048
[SPEAKER_01]: Police decided to trace the packets of castra beans that Michael had found in Deborah's purse in September.
16:53.929 --> 17:02.159
[SPEAKER_01]: Officers trace the origin of the packets in the Romate Garden Center in a way though, through an written contact details contained in Deborah's address book.
17:03.165 --> 17:11.187
[SPEAKER_01]: It was also revealed that a second purchase of castor beans had been made on September 20th from a different Earl May Garden Center in North Kansas City.
17:11.968 --> 17:29.333
[SPEAKER_01]: When investigators contacted the store to see if anyone matching diverse description had made such a purchase, the store advised that in the month prior, a female customer ordered 10 packets of castor beans, which were at the time out of season, saying she needed them for a school science fair.
17:30.317 --> 17:50.765
[SPEAKER_01]: When investigators found that there had been no such science fair at the kid's school, teleauthories get to the bottom of any alleged poisoning, Michael provided blood samples to police, local testing failed to identify any sign of residual rice and in Michael's system, but the samples were sent to Washington DC for more sophisticated testing.
17:51.565 --> 17:54.209
[SPEAKER_01]: Meanwhile, Michael's medical issues continue.
17:55.070 --> 18:01.558
[SPEAKER_01]: His previous repeated bouts of severe gastrointestinal distress and resulted in bacterial endocarditis.
18:02.339 --> 18:05.884
[SPEAKER_01]: A heart valve infection that results from ingest and caster beans.
18:06.938 --> 18:20.004
[SPEAKER_01]: Month following the fire, Michael underwent surgery when the result of the blood test came back, the levels of rice and antibiotics were so high that it was clear that Michael had ingested the toxin on numerous occasions.
18:20.764 --> 18:27.707
[SPEAKER_01]: That same month, news reports started to indicate that Michael had allegedly been poisoned, and that this was linked to the fire.
18:28.427 --> 18:33.051
[SPEAKER_01]: But authorities remain tight-lipped about who they believe were responsible for either offense.
18:33.871 --> 18:36.773
[SPEAKER_01]: The public didn't have to wait long for more details, though.
18:37.594 --> 18:40.456
[SPEAKER_01]: In November 22nd, Deborah was arrested.
18:41.397 --> 18:45.099
[SPEAKER_01]: She faced two counts of first-degree murder for the deaths of Tim and Kelly.
18:45.820 --> 18:51.804
[SPEAKER_01]: Two counts of attempted first-degree murder, in the cases of Michael and Kate, and one count of aggravated Arson.
18:57.115 --> 19:01.617
[SPEAKER_01]: In January 1996, a pre-trial show hearing was held.
19:02.617 --> 19:06.118
[SPEAKER_01]: Michael had given a videotape deposition a month prior to the hearing.
19:06.919 --> 19:17.222
[SPEAKER_01]: The Kansas City star reported that a month-all in Michael Surgery, another procedure was required to treat the same bacterial condition, an injury and an abscess that had formed in his brain.
19:18.083 --> 19:23.865
[SPEAKER_01]: This time, there was a very real possibility that he may not survive the surgery to testify against his ex-wife.
19:24.966 --> 19:37.098
[SPEAKER_01]: Thankfully, 40-year-old Michael pulled through the risky procedure and gave evidence in person, telling the court about Deborah's alcohol dependency, and that their marriage was loveless and uncaring.
19:38.067 --> 19:51.452
[SPEAKER_01]: With regard to the alleged poisoning, the prosecution presented evidence that Michael's gastrointestinal condition couldn't be attributed to anyone dying noises, but that his symptoms were all indicated for a repeated rice and exposure.
19:52.192 --> 19:58.535
[SPEAKER_01]: When it came to the fire, the prosecution asserted that Deborah had splashed a large amount of accelerant throughout the house.
19:59.275 --> 20:04.400
[SPEAKER_01]: So much in fact, then when she ignited it, her hair was cinched and her bathroom burned.
20:05.040 --> 20:11.126
[SPEAKER_01]: She ran her head under the shower and discarded a rope on the bathroom floor before running outside in her night gown.
20:11.807 --> 20:23.678
[SPEAKER_01]: The core heard of the large amount of poor and burn patterns found in the remains of the family home, indicated that a large amount of accelerates appeared to have targeted the children's bedroom, closing off any paths of escape.
20:24.838 --> 20:36.206
[SPEAKER_01]: The nature of the damage from the flames to Deborah's bedroom door, and the carbon at the base of the door, indicated it had been open during the fire, contradicting her account that the door had been closed.
20:37.066 --> 20:40.629
[SPEAKER_01]: Portions of Deborah's video tape police interview were played to the court.
20:41.509 --> 20:46.853
[SPEAKER_01]: Supporting the assessment of detectives that are made or at the time had appeared extremely out of the ordinary.
20:47.856 --> 20:56.500
[SPEAKER_01]: The core heard that as investigators picked through the wreckage after the fire, a novel was discovered on Deborah's bed, which he checked out at the local library.
20:57.380 --> 21:02.143
[SPEAKER_01]: The book was about several children burning to death in a house fire that was deliberately lit.
21:02.743 --> 21:05.624
[SPEAKER_01]: That wasn't the only recreational reading Deborah had been doing.
21:06.284 --> 21:13.228
[SPEAKER_01]: Her library records also indicated that prior to the fire, she had borrowed several books on intra-familiar homicide.
21:14.028 --> 21:20.093
[SPEAKER_01]: In other words, books about killing members of one's own family, Deborah maintained her innocence.
21:20.714 --> 21:30.321
[SPEAKER_01]: The defense placed the blame for both the fire and Michael's poisoning squarely on Tim, who, of course, was no longer alive to be able to defend such accusations.
21:31.102 --> 21:35.106
[SPEAKER_01]: It was claimed that Tim was motivated to destroy the house out of anger at Michael.
21:35.827 --> 21:45.757
[SPEAKER_01]: This statement wasn't exceptionally far-fetched, given Michael himself had testified that it is sometimes physically aggressive relationship with his son, was difficult at it best.
21:47.020 --> 21:53.304
[SPEAKER_01]: The Manhattan Mercury newspaper later reported that the Nanny who worked for the family for four years was approached by Tim.
21:53.785 --> 22:01.911
[SPEAKER_01]: One day in 1990, she stated that a year old Tim had confided in her that his parents were arguing so much that they were divorcing.
22:02.611 --> 22:08.213
[SPEAKER_01]: She also stated that Tim was so angry, he burst out that he'd kill his father and burned down the house.
22:08.933 --> 22:13.614
[SPEAKER_01]: The Kansas City star newspaper reported that the court heard that 1995.
22:14.214 --> 22:18.335
[SPEAKER_01]: Tim developed somewhat of a fascination with fire and explosives.
22:18.836 --> 22:23.117
[SPEAKER_01]: He liked to sketch bombs and rockets, even concocting Moltov cocktails.
22:23.817 --> 22:28.319
[SPEAKER_01]: Setting a fire and an neighbor's yard and carrying around fire-related paraphernalia.
22:28.339 --> 22:38.122
[SPEAKER_01]: Then Annie also added that on two occasions, she'd found Tim setting fires in trash cans, once in the basement, and the other in today in the Nani's kitchen.
22:38.809 --> 22:52.760
[SPEAKER_01]: The explanation for Deborah's unusual demeanor, both at the scene hand during her police interview, was that the medication prescribed to manage her mental illness, affecting her ability to respond to someone normally would, when experiencing traumatic events.
22:53.541 --> 22:59.365
[SPEAKER_01]: With the proceedings for the show hearing included, Deborah's arrangement was scheduled for early February 1996.
23:01.367 --> 23:09.016
[SPEAKER_01]: Following the show cause hearing, the prosecution announced they would be seeking the death penalty at trial, before the trial commenced.
23:09.737 --> 23:20.570
[SPEAKER_01]: And what was proving to be one of the most sensational and infamous cases in state history, both the prosecution and the defense made numerous requests to the court, but how proceedings would run.
23:21.471 --> 23:33.838
[SPEAKER_01]: In March 1996, Deborah's competence to stay in trial was evaluated by the Defense Psychologist, who later expressed concerns about Deborah's state of mind on the night of the fire, but declared her competent.
23:34.399 --> 23:36.840
[SPEAKER_01]: Deborah's bail remained at $3 million.
23:37.560 --> 23:42.924
[SPEAKER_01]: The defense applied to have the charges heard at separate trials on the basis that it was prejudicial to Deborah.
23:43.644 --> 23:50.028
[SPEAKER_01]: That the jury would be confused by the evidence and unable to make separate decisions when it came to the murder and poisoning charges.
23:50.845 --> 24:00.220
[SPEAKER_01]: But this request was rejected by the judge, who stated that the evidence in all counts overlapped, citing a compelling factual relationship between the charges.
24:01.242 --> 24:15.156
[SPEAKER_01]: As preparations for the trial commence, the defense knew that the key to raising sufficient reasonable doubt was discrediting the evidence of fire investigators, who were of the view that the fire was caused by arson, and conducting their own inquiries.
24:15.737 --> 24:21.722
[SPEAKER_01]: The defense found that at the time of the fire, Deborah's bathroom was wrapped in a ball on the floor of her bathroom.
24:22.363 --> 24:28.052
[SPEAKER_01]: Burnmarks on the rope were consistent with those commonly found on clothing worn when someone lights a fire.
24:28.613 --> 24:36.605
[SPEAKER_01]: This new revelation halted the attempt by the defense to provide doubts as to Deborah's involvement in both the fire and the alleged poisoning.
24:37.646 --> 24:48.530
[SPEAKER_01]: Paced with an uphill battle in terms of successfully defending their client, Deborah's lawyers enlisted the assistance of her divorce attorney to see if further information could be elucidated from their client.
24:49.170 --> 24:54.652
[SPEAKER_01]: Deborah maintained that Tim was the one who had poisoned Michael and admitted to starting the fire.
24:55.232 --> 24:59.614
[SPEAKER_01]: But was unable to provide further details as to how the tragedy unfolded or why.
25:00.926 --> 25:03.569
[SPEAKER_01]: In the end, the case wouldn't proceed to trial.
25:04.429 --> 25:10.956
[SPEAKER_01]: In April 1996, the defense advised the District Attorney's Office that their client wished to enter a plea bargain.
25:11.656 --> 25:13.858
[SPEAKER_01]: Debra entered what is known as an Alfred plea.
25:14.459 --> 25:18.042
[SPEAKER_01]: This type of plea is where it defended, maintains their innocence in a crime.
25:18.703 --> 25:24.488
[SPEAKER_01]: The police guilty based on the likelihood that the available evidence will prove their guilt be on a reasonable doubt.
25:25.188 --> 25:30.472
[SPEAKER_01]: For sentencing purposes, it's considered a guilty plea, but is not considered an emission of guilt.
25:31.213 --> 25:40.820
[SPEAKER_01]: At the plea bargain, Michael again attended court, only days after having further brain surgery to treat weakened blood vessels that left him at the risk of suffering or stroke.
25:41.837 --> 25:49.062
[SPEAKER_01]: At the hearing held at Johnson County Circuit Corps in Olaitha, Deborah fled no contest to two counts of capital murder.
25:49.782 --> 25:53.965
[SPEAKER_01]: One count of aggravated arson and two counts of attempted first-degree murder.
25:54.805 --> 26:03.530
[SPEAKER_01]: She read her prepared statement saying, I'm aware that the state can't produce substantial evidence that I set the fire the cause of death of my children.
26:04.331 --> 26:10.675
[SPEAKER_01]: My attorneys are ready, willing and able to present evidence that I was not in control of myself when Tim and Kelly died.
26:11.427 --> 26:19.592
[SPEAKER_01]: However true, that may be, defending myself atrial on these charges when only compound the suffering of my family, my daughter Kate.
26:20.252 --> 26:21.933
[SPEAKER_01]: I love my family very much.
26:22.553 --> 26:27.156
[SPEAKER_01]: I never meant to harm my children, but I accept the fact that I will be punished archely.
26:27.936 --> 26:32.939
[SPEAKER_01]: I believe that it is best to end this now so that we can begin to heal from our horrible loss.
26:34.080 --> 26:38.923
[SPEAKER_01]: The plea bargain would ensure that Deborah would avoid the death penalty in the event of a conviction.
26:39.905 --> 26:49.928
[SPEAKER_01]: Following the plea hearing, Deborah's defense reiterated to the media that she accepted full responsibility, but that her intent in setting the fire was not to kill her children.
26:51.208 --> 26:56.050
[SPEAKER_01]: On May 30, 1996, Deborah appeared in core first-sentencing.
26:56.980 --> 27:07.782
[SPEAKER_01]: The Defense Psychologist, who had originally assessed Deborah as competent to stand trial, testified that Deborah was cognitively competent and capable of controlling her emotion at a basic level.
27:08.542 --> 27:21.344
[SPEAKER_01]: But as she had an inability to process emotions at a more complex level, the core heard that the faces of Deborah's psychiatric admissions hospital were a diagnosis of either major depression or bipolar disorder.
27:27.405 --> 27:39.939
[SPEAKER_01]: The defense psychologist was of the view that Deborah had skit-solid personality disorder and told the court that Deborah had managed to maintain the veneer of being high functioning thanks to her level of intellectual intelligence.
27:40.660 --> 27:46.567
[SPEAKER_01]: But under the stain of her chaotic home life, her academic abilities failed to adequately mask her struggle.
27:48.108 --> 27:58.156
[SPEAKER_01]: to have received two life prison terms for the murders, two eight year terms for attempted murder, and four years for aggravated arson, all to run concurrently.
27:58.917 --> 28:04.902
[SPEAKER_01]: This amounted to a total 40 year term with no chance of parole, also known as a hard 40.
28:06.471 --> 28:11.632
[SPEAKER_01]: Following sentencing, Debra maintained that she had little memory of the events of the night of the fire.
28:12.592 --> 28:18.093
[SPEAKER_01]: Now long after she was incarcerated, she wrote to both Kate and Michael making various claims.
28:18.813 --> 28:23.954
[SPEAKER_01]: These included that she exceeded the recommended dose to Debra medications on the night of the fire.
28:24.835 --> 28:31.736
[SPEAKER_01]: The suggestion that Michael's girlfriend Margaret started the fire, ammaintaining that Tim was responsible for poisoning Michael.
28:32.997 --> 28:44.015
[SPEAKER_01]: Over the years, other diagnosis has been suggested with regard to Deborah State of Mind, including psychopathy, as well as borderline and narcissistic personality disorders.
28:45.178 --> 28:51.423
[SPEAKER_01]: In the year 2000, 49-year-old Deborah made an application to the court to withdraw her no contest plea.
28:52.284 --> 29:02.291
[SPEAKER_01]: She claimed that from the time she was arrested, her ability to comprehend the legal proceedings against her was affected, due to being under the influence of psychotropic medication.
29:02.992 --> 29:08.716
[SPEAKER_01]: However, her quest was withdrawn when she was informed that she had a retrial be granted.
29:09.377 --> 29:14.381
[SPEAKER_01]: Prosecutors were pursuers under the full force of the law by seeking the death penalty.
29:15.510 --> 29:22.535
[SPEAKER_01]: In 2004, Deborah filed another request with a court seeking a retrial in relation to the charges relating to the fire.
29:23.476 --> 29:32.141
[SPEAKER_01]: Her claim was based on the argument that advances made in the field of fire science related to ours in investigation since her conviction would prove her innocence.
29:33.026 --> 29:43.355
[SPEAKER_01]: However, the court determined that Deborah had failed to present any new evidence to support her claim that a charge of ours had been disproved and her request for a trial was denied.
29:44.275 --> 29:51.982
[SPEAKER_01]: December 2014, the Kansas City star newspaper reported that 63-year-old Deborah was seeking a new sentencing hearing.
29:53.262 --> 30:05.074
[SPEAKER_01]: Ever claimed her sentence was unconstitutional, citing a decision by the Kansas Supreme Court the previous year, which ruled that sentence as such as Deborah should be determined by a jury, and not a judge.
30:05.954 --> 30:17.045
[SPEAKER_01]: The following month, the Johnson County District Court determined that the ruling could not be applied to Deborah's sentence retrospectively, and that her case did not represent one of manifest injustice.
30:18.217 --> 30:26.716
[SPEAKER_01]: Demmer continues to serve her sentence at the Tepeca Correctional Facility in Kansas, where she is currently classified as a low-to-medium security prisoner.
30:27.935 --> 30:30.377
[SPEAKER_01]: Early as possible, release date is November, 2035.
30:30.817 --> 30:52.413
[SPEAKER_01]: Only three months after Deborah was sentenced, Michael faced two more hard surgeries, following the conviction, Michael and Cave faced a new struggle in rebuilding not only their shattered lives, but their broken relationship, one of the many long-term consequences of Deborah's behavior, and turning her children against their father.
30:53.540 --> 31:02.003
[SPEAKER_01]: Michael continues to practice medicine and remarried in 1997, but not a Margaret, a couple having parted ways in 1996.
31:03.564 --> 31:13.127
[SPEAKER_01]: At the cemetery where Simon Kelly's ashes are in turn, a poem by Mary Elizabeth Fry can be found poignally marking the children's final resting place.
31:14.664 --> 31:16.525
[SPEAKER_01]: do not stand at my grave in weep.
31:17.366 --> 31:18.186
[SPEAKER_01]: I am not here.
31:18.987 --> 31:19.847
[SPEAKER_01]: I do not sleep.
31:20.668 --> 31:22.309
[SPEAKER_01]: I am a thousand winds that blow.
31:23.009 --> 31:24.870
[SPEAKER_01]: I am the diamond's guilt on snow.
31:25.831 --> 31:27.752
[SPEAKER_01]: I am the sunlight on ripe and grain.
31:28.532 --> 31:30.053
[SPEAKER_01]: I am the gentle autumn's raid.
31:30.894 --> 31:35.296
[SPEAKER_01]: When you awaken the morning's hush, I am the swift uplifting rush.
31:36.237 --> 31:38.218
[SPEAKER_01]: Of quiet birds and circled fight.
31:38.958 --> 31:41.100
[SPEAKER_01]: I am the soft stars as shine in the night.
31:42.204 --> 31:44.268
[SPEAKER_01]: Do not stand at my grave and cry.
31:45.471 --> 31:46.192
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not here.
31:46.212 --> 31:47.955
[SPEAKER_01]: I did not die.
