SERIAL KILLER: Paul Durousseau | Jacksonville, Florida 1997-2003

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[SPEAKER_01]: Listener, released with this episode is going to be a free fire side chat and I'm going to release one next episode as well.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Just to give you guys a taste of what you're missing on the Patreon that just isn't black label because there's other stuff that gets released there too.

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[SPEAKER_01]: If you'd like to hear more, head to patreon.com so I should obscure a crime podcast.

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[SPEAKER_01]: For a time in the late 90s and early 2000s, a man stalked the streets of Jacksonville, Florida.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He stealthily dispatched of women, and a manor of which he got his nickname, the Jacksonville Strangler.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Today, we cover this man and his many crimes, but Mike with many episodes of Obscura, we're gonna start from the beginning.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome listener.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad you're here.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Take a seat.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Next to the fire.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Obscura, where we shine a light on the dark.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Paul D'Russo was born on August 10, 1970, and Beaumont, Texas, to unwed parents.

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[SPEAKER_01]: His mother was battered by his father when she was pregnant with him.

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[SPEAKER_01]: D'Russo was severely jaundiced at birth and was held three extra days at the hospital because of this condition.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It is written in his medical records that he experienced brain trauma in Uduro.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Druso and his older brother, Joseph III, moved to Los Angeles to be raised by their mother and her family.

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[SPEAKER_01]: As a toddler, Druso was in a baby stroller which tipped backwards.

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[SPEAKER_01]: causing him to strike the back of his head, although he did not lose consciousness, he sustained a balloon like swelling at the back of his head.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He was rushed to the hospital, and his mother was advised to monitor him for several months.

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[SPEAKER_01]: A doctor who later examined Jerusalem, explained that the brain which sits inside the skull could have been jarred forward within the skull from the fall.

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[SPEAKER_01]: causing injury to the front part of the brain, where the frontal lobes are located.

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[SPEAKER_01]: She compared it to injuries sustained by infants and shaken baby syndrome cases.

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[SPEAKER_01]: As a child, Duroso was diagnosed with a thyroid disease.

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[SPEAKER_01]: the disease ran in the family, and according to at least one doctor, it's something that could have contributed to his brain damage.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The disease is also something found frequently in those diagnosed with bipolar disorder, though they're not mutually exclusive.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Bipolar is a disorder that derusa would later struggle with in life.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Jerusalem cried a lot as a young child.

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[SPEAKER_01]: His mother said he would fool around and was difficult to manage.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Took many risks, talked in class.

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[SPEAKER_01]: In sometimes talked and talked without being able to shut up, he was described as having grandiose ideas about his own persona, and he considered himself irresistible to women.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Junor, a close family friend of his mother, described him as humorous,

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[SPEAKER_01]: Family friends on La Tonia Street and Keanu Michelle Williams Medina testified he was also respectful, courteous, and polite.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The Laura Sheen, the principal at Sheenway Educational Cultural Center, were to Russo-attended school from 1985 to 1987.

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[SPEAKER_01]: testified that she never once had to discipline him.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Although records show he was not a good student, he participated in all school activities, and attended school there the regular five days per week.

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[SPEAKER_01]: John Sims, a close friend of Paul's brother, Dennis Page, said it derusos shy away from physical contact because he was afraid of getting hurt because of this fear.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He did not participate in sports, other than running track.

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[SPEAKER_01]: According to Mr. Sims, he was kind of shy and weak, but he was always positive.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The Russo's cousin, Eric Moton, who was raised with him and his brothers, described him as always together, and the one who was the easiest going of us all.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He further stayed in.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I never saw him do anything out of line.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Mrs. Medina described to Russo this way, quote, all made every effort to keep things balanced.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that was one thing that as a young man, and as a man, he was very even killed.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He wanted things to be smooth sailing.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Easy going.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He was very laid back.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, if things weren't a despair mode, that all you could see was despair, he had a joke for you.

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[SPEAKER_01]: All experience some racial discrimination from his peers back then.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Some of the white kids didn't want to play with them, because he's black.

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[SPEAKER_01]: D'Ruso was sexually active from the age of 12.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Several previous girlfriends were interviewed and stated that sometimes he wanted sex constantly.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But then, randomly, he'd become disinterested and distant during these periods to Russo when landbed for the majority of the day, and only speak when spoken to, giving short answers before rolling over and withdrawing.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Paul de Russo was experiencing depression and pervasive paranoia, sometimes he was seen talking to himself.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And when people asked him who he was speaking to, he would just smirk and say, no one.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Alderuso grew to an imposing six foot six inches tall.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He was then with muscles.

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[SPEAKER_01]: All sharp features, like he was carved from a city in.

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[SPEAKER_01]: His facial features seemed exaggerated, with a near permanent grin.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And he had a bulging atom's apple that was difficult to miss.

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[SPEAKER_01]: all had an IQ of only 82, which put him at the borderline of an intellectual disability.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He had limitations in learning, such as being barely literate, which explains the special education curriculum that he completed in high school.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Despite this, he was surprisingly astute when it came to electronics.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Early on, he took a liking to technology, and he was always helping people repair things.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so, that is to say, the extent of his brain damage is hard to gauge.

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[SPEAKER_01]: All had sexual relationships with 20 different women between 1999 and 2002.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Now, listener, usually such activities require a certain degree of charm not often associated with individuals who have a very severe brain damage.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying that he didn't struggle in school, but I'm also saying that moderately low IQ shouldn't be a defense curall.

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[SPEAKER_01]: 1989 all became a security guard after graduating from Mercedes High School in Los Angeles.

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[SPEAKER_01]: In 1991, he was arrested for carrying a concealed weapon.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He received three years probation.

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[SPEAKER_01]: One month later, he was arrested again in California on the same exact charge.

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[SPEAKER_01]: November 1992, all enlisted in the Army,

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[SPEAKER_01]: Rather than marrying a woman that he got pregnant, in 1992 in Oklahoma, where during basic training in the army, Alderuso was involved in an outdoor exercise and freezing temperatures.

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[SPEAKER_01]: There, he refused to sleep inside of his sleeping bag, choosing instead to sleep outside the bag.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Despite the bitter cold, Paul failed to give an explanation for this behavior.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's around this time that he started hearing voices, at least according to Paul.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He was in basic training at the beginning of his military career.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He remained in the army for about five more years.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He received a bad conduct discharge.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He did not receive a medical or mental health discharge.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We'll get into why he was discharged a bit later.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Hall was later stationed in Germany in 1995.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Hall married Nautica Span, a soldier that he met in Germany.

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[SPEAKER_01]: In 1996 at the age of 26,

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[SPEAKER_01]: Euryum Lestin, the Army, and was stationed in Fort Benning, Georgia.

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[SPEAKER_01]: One month later, a woman was kidnapped and raped in a neighboring city.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Two months later, Paul D'Russo was arrested and charged with kidnapping and rape.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He was acquitted of the charges in a court martial due to unsubstantiated evidence.

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[SPEAKER_02]: and checking his arrest for I could we see that he would uh uh he's like a little bit charmed life yes he'd get arrested but the target would either be dropped or he'd be pleaded or get convicted of a lesser charge he just kept going and to me and when you get a person like this it thinks he can get away uh without having to answer for his crimes didn't to me they become very dangerous and they're they're going to

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[SPEAKER_01]: He later pleaded guilty in a separate case to receiving stolen property, leading the army to dismiss two varsity charges against him.

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[SPEAKER_01]: In particular, for buying computer equipment stolen from the military base, Deruso subsequently received a bad conduct discharge.

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[SPEAKER_01]: On September 7, 1997, the nude body of 26-year-old Tracy Habersham was discovered by a person

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[SPEAKER_01]: It was the neighborhood where she had grown up.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Tracy went missing after dancing with the Russo at a nightclub.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Her body was found two days later, and investigators believed she was strangled soon after leaving the club.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Investigators noted to the local papers that the murder was particularly brutal.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Tracy had fought hard, several nails on her fingers were broken.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Meaning, she'd attempted to fight off her attacker.

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[SPEAKER_01]: She wasn't going to go down easy.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Someone out there was walking around with scratch marks covering their arms and potentially their face.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Tracy died with her eyes open.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They bulge in an accusatory stare, asking the universe a question she didn't live to receive the answer to.

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[SPEAKER_01]: After his discharge from the army, Deruson is wife re-located to Jacksonville in September of 1997, Halls Wife, Nautica, gave birth to their second daughter.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Two months later, due to continued domestic violence, Nautica takes her two daughters and moves to Jacksonville, Florida, Deruson follows them to Florida.

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[SPEAKER_01]: In April 1999, Paul was arrested for molesting a 15-year-old girl in Jacksonville, Florida.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Charges were not finaled.

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[SPEAKER_01]: One month later, he was arrested in Jacksonville for trespassing, and spent two days in jail.

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[SPEAKER_02]: We had failed that his criminal history that the Rucho had been arrested in 2001 for sexual battery on a 19-year-old female here in Jacksonville.

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[SPEAKER_04]: he asked her if she was single, she said back, what's got her for her keeps there, you get her right home, and she described him as being handsome and charming.

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[SPEAKER_04]: Mike Thomas said that she pulled us over and gazed in conceptual and sexual activity on numerous occasions.

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[SPEAKER_04]: He said that she caught him with a passion mark on his neck and broke off in the list.

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[SPEAKER_04]: He had to broke off with a folder and so he flipped out and ran right in neck and slender against her dryer.

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[SPEAKER_04]: He took him up carried off stairs and went off a clothing and sexually gathered.

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[SPEAKER_04]: He said he also said that if he couldn't have her, nobody would.

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[SPEAKER_01]: In 1999, a woman named Theresa Mack lived in an apartment in Jacksonville with her three small children.

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[SPEAKER_01]: On July 26, Max's children were picked up by the daycare around 730 in the morning.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Adam Moss, a friend of the family who did handyman work for them, arrived at the apartment to fix a lock for Mack.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Adam noted how clean the apartment was.

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[SPEAKER_01]: the TV played in the background while he worked on the walk.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Nicole Jackson also came by Max's apartment that morning.

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[SPEAKER_01]: She and Max left the apartment to look for work together.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Adam Moss also left prior to Mac and Jackson leaving.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Mac was wearing a black and white outfit when she went out with Jackson and an ex and O necklace with a heart-pended and a matching bracelet.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Jackson and Mac submitted job applications.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He got McDonald's and continued looking for jobs.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They then returned to Max's apartment.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Around one pm, there was very hot, very humid.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Jackson's car had no working air conditioning, and Mac was shiny with sweat.

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[SPEAKER_01]: and appeared tired.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Jackson dropped off Mack, who went to her apartment.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And Jackson left.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Around one PM, Mack spoke with her friend, Tesla McFadden on the phone, about getting a ride to a doctor's appointment.

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[SPEAKER_01]: For Mack's son, at 1-25 PM, McFadden called Mack back and asked her to call later in case she fell asleep.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Joy Williams was a neighbor of Theresa Mack.

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[SPEAKER_01]: A new her.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Around one PM to 2 PM the afternoon.

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[SPEAKER_01]: When you saw a tall, skinny, dark-skinned man with a noticeable atom's apple, walk out of max building, carrying a television toward a red, four-door car, Rufus Picney, was also at the scene at the time.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Mr. Picney also knew Theresa Mac, and was waiting for a bus sometime after one PM that day.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Hickney saw a tall, white-skinned, skinny black man wearing a blue workout fit.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Hickney saw the man with the large Adam's apple get something out of the trunk of a red car and then walked upstairs to Theresa Mack's apartment, listener.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The red vehicle previously mentioned it was a red Mazda RX6, all had purchased the vehicle earlier that year.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He worked at good year at the time, where he wore a navy blue work uniform, noted by the witnesses.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Theresa Mac did not call Tesla McFadden back as they had agreed, so McFadden attempted to call Mac at 250, but Mac did not answer.

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[SPEAKER_01]: She tried to contact Mac several more times, but never

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[SPEAKER_01]: At some point, Serabia Mack, Teresa Mack's sister, became worried because all of Teresa's children came home from daycare, even though Teresa was supposed to have taken one of them to the doctor.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Serabia went to Teresa's apartment.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It was a hot day and insects buzzed in the air.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Despite knocking several times, no one answered the door.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Later, Serabia returned to her sister's apartment, with a mar-otum or stepfather.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They still received no answer, so they broke in.

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[SPEAKER_01]: While Teresa's bedroom had been neat when Serabia visited two days earlier, it was now, quote, a disaster.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The bedroom had been ransacked with a chest of drawers pulled out in an empty purse.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Teresa was dead, lying on the bed, wearing a shirt but no bottom with a white telephone cord wrapped around her neck.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Stravia recognized Teresa's shirt as the one she wore for the interview at McDonald's.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Teresa's underwear were found underneath her and torn.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The cord had a jack at one end, but appeared to have been torn at the other end.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The cord appeared to match Theresa's phone, which had the cord missing.

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[SPEAKER_01]: torn off the base.

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[SPEAKER_01]: There was dust on the entertainment center, but no dust where the television had been.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Sheravia also noticed that Theresa was not wearing an X&O's heart-pandent necklace that she wore every day, and a matching bracelet.

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[SPEAKER_01]: but the cord was missing.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The cord had a jack at one end, but appeared to have been torn from the other end.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The cord around MaxNec appeared to match Theresa's phone.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It appeared that it was torn off the base of the phone.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Margaret Arusa conducted the autopsy on Theresa Mac.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Mac was five foot four and weighed 122 pounds.

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[SPEAKER_01]: She had abrasions on her nose, cheek, and tongue.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The abrasions were on both sides, indicating that she was moving her head back and forth, and had marks on her arms, consistent with being restrained.

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[SPEAKER_01]: While there was a court around her neck, Dr. Rosa cannot determine whether the court contributed to the death.

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[SPEAKER_01]: She applying that Mac, died of a spixia.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The spixia could have been caused by strangulation or suffocation.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Rosa also found sperm in Max, vagina.

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[SPEAKER_01]: From March through June of 1999, Haldaruso's children, as well as Theresa Max's children, attended Tina's Little Angels Daycare.

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[SPEAKER_01]: In August 1999, Paul's wife Nautica asked police how to get a domestic violence restraining order against him.

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[SPEAKER_01]: She wouldn't be granted that restraining order until one year later, when he was arrested for brutally assaulting her.

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[SPEAKER_03]: You know me when Litch drank just in her house, so I had to be somebody she kind of knew or we just didn't know, you know, it was very difficult.

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[SPEAKER_03]: particularly they she was supposed to get them from school because the baby had all pregnant.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Well at five they brought them to my grandmother's house which was a normal for that baby because she was supposed to be a good mother.

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[SPEAKER_05]: Theresa's grandmother tried to contact Theresa multiple times that afternoon by telephone to know a veil.

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[SPEAKER_05]: As a result she contacted this radio by phone and asked her if she knew where her sister was.

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[SPEAKER_05]: This radio had no idea but immediately headed over to the apartment.

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[SPEAKER_05]: Which we identify to witnesses during the investigation.

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[SPEAKER_05]: One of them observed the suspect exit the apartment building with the TV and his hand.

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[SPEAKER_05]: Both of the witnesses observed the suspect enter a vehicle and leave the area.

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[SPEAKER_05]: We learned about foreign individuals that knew the victim around the time of her death.

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[SPEAKER_05]: we conducted thorough interviews with each one of these individuals during which time we also obtained consensual DNA from.

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[SPEAKER_05]: Ultimately, none of these individuals was maths and description provided by the two witnesses.

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[SPEAKER_05]: The DNA database is composed of known profiles.

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[SPEAKER_05]: Our suspect was not in the database.

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[SPEAKER_05]: As a result, you're left with a profile and you're trying to find a match.

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[SPEAKER_05]: It's almost like a needle and a haystack unless you find a particular suspect that matches investigation continues.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Listener, that's it for part one.

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[SPEAKER_01]: In the next episode, we get to the rest of the murders.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Now only get darker from here.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The Jacksonville Strangler is one that doesn't get covered often, and I'm not fully sure why.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He's just not one of those big hitters.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It occurred to me randomly, might as well give it a shot.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, if you'd like to hear a part two, you can head to patreon.com slash obscure a crime podcast and get access to it now.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But if you're patron, well, you likely already have access to it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, I thank you for listening and keep the fire burning.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Listener, how are you?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Tonight, I'm in a contemplative mood.

20:31.886 --> 20:35.952
[SPEAKER_01]: My wife is visiting her sister, and she took the baby with her.

20:36.773 --> 20:41.600
[SPEAKER_01]: We can's like this, give me an opportunity to put in a lot of work into the podcast.

20:42.401 --> 20:45.726
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, I've been chipping away at Black Label.

20:46.828 --> 20:52.176
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, what I wanna talk about today or tonight is death.

20:52.409 --> 20:57.395
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, you would think with the true crime pod guests, this subject would come up more frequently.

20:57.776 --> 21:01.641
[SPEAKER_01]: But when you think about it, we sort of take the subject for granted.

21:02.181 --> 21:11.834
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the natural conclusion to many of the people we hear about in our episodes, be it the victims or the killers.

21:12.695 --> 21:14.337
[SPEAKER_01]: We all have death waiting for us.

21:15.258 --> 21:20.104
[SPEAKER_01]: And how we choose to deal with that varies person to person.

21:20.084 --> 21:24.937
[SPEAKER_01]: Growing up, I was a stone-cooled atheist, and these days, I'm a Christian.

21:25.178 --> 21:29.550
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not something I talk about a lot, especially on the podcast.

21:29.570 --> 21:36.068
[SPEAKER_01]: I know what it's like to deal with judging people, and I never would want you guys to think on that way.

21:36.284 --> 21:58.225
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, when I worked for Blockbuster, back then I was an atheist, and when my co-workers found out, it got around and I was basically fired for it, but to make a long matter short, I had a spiritual experience, and it's done a lot to alleviate my fears of death as I've gotten older.

21:58.778 --> 21:59.900
[SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, that's nice.

22:00.882 --> 22:06.173
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel very blessed having that stress taken away for me.

22:07.135 --> 22:13.088
[SPEAKER_01]: I pretty twerk tranquil when it comes to thinking about the subject, but it wasn't always that way.

22:14.090 --> 22:16.635
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I had quite the fear of death.

22:16.767 --> 22:18.190
[SPEAKER_01]: all the way into my adulthood.

22:18.812 --> 22:22.440
[SPEAKER_01]: When I was young as a kid, I would lay in bed thinking about it.

22:23.021 --> 22:28.554
[SPEAKER_01]: I would think about what it was like to die and then just the next thing, nothing.

22:29.176 --> 22:31.601
[SPEAKER_01]: Not sleep, not even blackness.

22:32.423 --> 22:35.350
[SPEAKER_01]: The absence of life.

22:35.465 --> 22:39.970
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever that is, exactly what happened before you were born.

22:40.651 --> 22:45.316
[SPEAKER_01]: And that concept was both mind-blowing to me and terrifying.

22:46.097 --> 22:49.981
[SPEAKER_01]: And I hope I'm not giving you anxiety, listener.

22:50.522 --> 22:56.989
[SPEAKER_01]: I come to you in a sense of solidarity because we've all experienced these stresses in these thoughts.

22:57.670 --> 23:04.678
[SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, that concept of eternal nothingness

23:04.810 --> 23:13.045
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when I ended up in relationships and friendships, et cetera, it became the fear of those around me dying.

23:14.047 --> 23:16.892
[SPEAKER_01]: And it overwhelmed my own fear of death.

23:17.694 --> 23:22.082
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that was less at the forefront and more in the back.

23:22.623 --> 23:26.790
[SPEAKER_01]: It would sometimes bubble up, but I became more worried about those around me.

23:27.512 --> 23:28.253
[SPEAKER_01]: And...

23:28.537 --> 23:31.702
[SPEAKER_01]: In a way, I wanted to go first.

23:31.803 --> 23:37.713
[SPEAKER_01]: I know that sounds crazy, but like before my friends before my loved ones, I didn't want to experience them dying.

23:38.655 --> 23:41.800
[SPEAKER_01]: And I thought I had the edge when it came to my siblings.

23:42.661 --> 23:53.380
[SPEAKER_01]: But then my brother Cody died of drug overdose, fentanyl-laced drugs took his life,

23:54.018 --> 23:55.301
[SPEAKER_01]: That hit me hard.

23:55.922 --> 24:00.692
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's one of the only time I've taken an extended break from the podcast.

24:01.113 --> 24:03.618
[SPEAKER_01]: So that should tell you everything there.

24:04.560 --> 24:06.224
[SPEAKER_01]: And do you wanna know a cowardly moment?

24:07.306 --> 24:11.014
[SPEAKER_01]: You see, my sister went to identify my brother.

24:11.382 --> 24:19.851
[SPEAKER_01]: And she took pictures and maybe video of him not entirely sure, while he was laying there deceased.

24:19.871 --> 24:25.576
[SPEAKER_01]: And when we were at Cody's celebration of life, she offered for me to see the pictures.

24:26.497 --> 24:27.518
[SPEAKER_01]: And would you believe it?

24:28.179 --> 24:34.645
[SPEAKER_01]: Big Mr. Truecrime, Mr. Obscura, I declined, I didn't want to see my brother that way.

24:35.326 --> 24:38.149
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not how I wanted to remember him.

24:38.281 --> 24:41.226
[SPEAKER_01]: My brother was always a character.

24:41.566 --> 24:42.528
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll just put it that way.

24:44.331 --> 24:49.279
[SPEAKER_01]: People say things like, oh, they brained up a room or whatever.

24:49.880 --> 24:54.868
[SPEAKER_01]: No, he was more black sheet material, but he was very funny and he felt larger than life.

24:56.570 --> 25:01.739
[SPEAKER_01]: When I say lit up the room, a lot of people were holding their breath, but I always loved him.

25:02.620 --> 25:03.782
[SPEAKER_01]: And,

25:03.965 --> 25:15.404
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, to see him, just, you know, laying their dead, I didn't want that to be the last thing, last image I ever had of him.

25:15.444 --> 25:17.107
[SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't want that in my brain.

25:17.668 --> 25:26.863
[SPEAKER_01]: I knew enough from true crime that you can put images inside of your head that you can never take out, because there are many cases I've covered that.

25:27.744 --> 25:29.888
[SPEAKER_01]: Boyle their way up to the surface.

25:30.053 --> 25:32.117
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, yeah, I knew better.

25:32.919 --> 25:36.987
[SPEAKER_01]: But I also recognize it makes me a little bit of a hypocrite, right?

25:37.007 --> 25:39.071
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of the cases I cover.

25:39.872 --> 25:45.784
[SPEAKER_01]: Those loved ones never got the opportunity to not see their loved ones in that state.

25:46.000 --> 25:53.249
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the people in my family, my friends, were also kind of safeguarded in the fact that, I think all of us want to be cremated.

25:53.289 --> 26:05.104
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know about you guys, but it seems like burial services are falling out of popularity and open caskets seem like a thing of the distant past.

26:05.704 --> 26:08.528
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, it could just be my immediate circle.

26:08.648 --> 26:11.572
[SPEAKER_01]: I haven't looked up the statistics or anything like that.

26:11.652 --> 26:15.957
[SPEAKER_01]: So I recognize I could be biased,

26:15.937 --> 26:18.161
[SPEAKER_01]: I can also see why things could go that way.

26:18.963 --> 26:27.960
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we did it for a long time as a sense of tradition, but I have been to funerals in the past, and I've been to open casket funerals.

26:29.182 --> 26:32.629
[SPEAKER_01]: It was never anyone that I had direct.

26:32.845 --> 26:35.428
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, friendships with or anything like that.

26:36.049 --> 26:40.494
[SPEAKER_01]: It was always distant relatives that I had met maybe once if that.

26:41.055 --> 26:42.536
[SPEAKER_01]: Some I had never even met before.

26:43.257 --> 26:49.865
[SPEAKER_01]: The first time I met them was, well, with them laying there in that casket, all waxy and still.

26:50.966 --> 26:57.334
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I knew from those experiences that those open casket events

26:57.837 --> 27:00.320
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone seems uncomfortable, everyone seems sad.

27:01.020 --> 27:04.825
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, if those are going away, I don't know.

27:05.325 --> 27:07.027
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't seem like a lot will be lost.

27:07.728 --> 27:14.395
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you guys will disagree with me, maybe there's a lot of you here that prefer to adhere to tradition.

27:14.856 --> 27:15.757
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's fine too.

27:16.517 --> 27:21.082
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, obviously it's been a practice for so long for a reason.

27:21.142 --> 27:25.347
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously some people find something attractive about it.

27:25.327 --> 27:37.040
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's the sense of finality, a closing chapter, so that you can process it and move on in a stronger way.

27:37.780 --> 27:46.710
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I will say, during Cody's celebration of life, when I was staring up at those fireworks that we had purchased for him, it was unreal.

27:47.171 --> 27:54.118
[SPEAKER_01]: It took a long time for me to accept that I had had my final conversation I'd ever had with him.

27:54.200 --> 27:55.905
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd never be able to speak with him again.

27:55.945 --> 28:02.282
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyhow, death, death and true crime go hand in hand.

28:03.305 --> 28:04.227
[SPEAKER_01]: But...

28:04.409 --> 28:07.976
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I said before, a lot of times, we're on to the case.

28:08.557 --> 28:12.905
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're on to the suspect, you know, whoever committed the act.

28:13.927 --> 28:18.917
[SPEAKER_01]: The death happens, you get the gruesome details, and maybe the autopsy report afterwards.

28:20.099 --> 28:26.772
[SPEAKER_01]: But actually sitting there and contemplating death, the absence of life.

28:27.106 --> 28:32.074
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not something you stick around and do a lot, because it's uncomfortable, right?

28:32.835 --> 28:34.698
[SPEAKER_01]: Considering your own mortality.

28:34.718 --> 28:48.840
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, it's kind of interesting, because I have spoken with people before, and there are people that are totally, you know, maybe atheist or agnostic, like, you know, I was for so long.

28:49.842 --> 28:51.484
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're very comfortable with their own death.

28:52.325 --> 28:54.008
[SPEAKER_01]: They look at it as, hey,

28:54.157 --> 29:07.951
[SPEAKER_01]: When they die, and they don't even know what happened, it'll just be passing into a sense of peace, connecting with the rest of eternity, and returning from before they were born.

29:08.431 --> 29:08.651
[SPEAKER_01]: All right?

29:08.671 --> 29:12.235
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess there is something sort of beautiful to that.

29:12.756 --> 29:16.259
[SPEAKER_01]: If not, admittedly a little scary, let's be honest.

29:18.241 --> 29:23.286
[SPEAKER_01]: It does seem unfair, though, right?

29:23.688 --> 29:29.018
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, let's say you look at it from the, you know, atheist or agnostic standpoint.

29:29.800 --> 29:38.777
[SPEAKER_01]: This idea that you're given this gift of life and, you know, obviously not every day can be a gift, right?

29:38.797 --> 29:42.304
[SPEAKER_01]: We all have our days, but let's just say gift of life.

29:42.605 --> 30:03.463
[SPEAKER_01]: And we have all this potential and we work so hard and when we finally start figuring things out, time starts to set in and time starts to move fast and every day goes by faster than the last and then every month a bit faster and then every year and you start looking around and you're like, wow, this isn't slowing down.

30:04.224 --> 30:11.430
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just now figuring things out and it seems like the end is getting nearer.

30:11.663 --> 30:13.285
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, yeah, I don't know.

30:13.685 --> 30:17.910
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe this is on my mind subconsciously because my birthday just happened.

30:19.031 --> 30:22.976
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm on the deep end of, you know, 30.

30:23.416 --> 30:26.280
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm 37 now, pushing towards 40.

30:26.320 --> 30:32.847
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, there's something to that, you know, like I did say, I'm pretty tranquil when it comes to that.

30:33.428 --> 30:41.417
[SPEAKER_01]: I mostly care that my loved ones aren't stressed about it.

30:41.397 --> 30:47.126
[SPEAKER_01]: she has so much ahead of her and life and it just fills me with joy.

30:47.146 --> 30:58.545
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to make her childhood happy and so I think it's easy for me too as well beyond any religious aspect.

30:58.525 --> 31:02.651
[SPEAKER_01]: to dedicate myself to focusing on her life.

31:03.472 --> 31:06.557
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not that worried about myself when it comes to that.

31:07.298 --> 31:17.853
[SPEAKER_01]: Even stress is with the podcast, worrying about financial aspects and keeping listenership up, checking Patreon, and hoping that too many people don't unsubscribe, you know?

31:17.913 --> 31:19.375
[SPEAKER_01]: Stuff like that.

31:20.076 --> 31:21.578
[SPEAKER_01]: Now it's related to my daughter.

31:21.859 --> 31:26.305
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not that worried about myself, like I said, if it was just me,

31:26.285 --> 31:47.069
[SPEAKER_01]: The older I got, the less I worried, I'd be like, well, I can always do construction or whatever, but now I think about, man, you know, I'd like to make her life special, and so it kind of drives me to work harder and you know, get those episodes out and get to typing, get to researching, etc.

31:47.109 --> 31:54.638
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think when you look at someone so young like that, it can be hard to have death on the mind.

31:54.989 --> 32:01.371
[SPEAKER_01]: So my birthday passed, you know, came in with this year and it was sort of the,

32:01.807 --> 32:04.710
[SPEAKER_01]: at least a vetful birthday in a while.

32:05.491 --> 32:10.496
[SPEAKER_01]: My wife had time off from work, and we went to the mall and did some early Christmas shopping.

32:11.277 --> 32:14.881
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we watched the movies at home, and we just spent time as a family.

32:15.822 --> 32:22.790
[SPEAKER_01]: We had a few ideas of big to-dos we could have done, but to be honest, in Florida, there was a cold front.

32:22.950 --> 32:29.417
[SPEAKER_01]: We woke up one morning, and it was 30 degrees, which is very uncommon for Florida.

32:29.397 --> 32:31.960
[SPEAKER_01]: uh, in the first half of November for sure.

32:31.980 --> 32:37.286
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of times, we don't see that type of weather until, like, January, right?

32:37.987 --> 32:39.488
[SPEAKER_01]: And only a couple days a year.

32:40.249 --> 32:43.352
[SPEAKER_01]: So to get it sorely was a big surprise.

32:43.533 --> 32:54.645
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I remember we had even had thoughts of potentially swimming, because it's not uncommon to have some November days out here in Florida, you know, that are in the 80s.

32:55.672 --> 32:59.618
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, yeah, it was cold, and so we called all that off.

32:59.678 --> 33:04.526
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, we just had some lazy family days, and it was a good time.

33:05.607 --> 33:10.455
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I had plenty of more days like that, I would be happy.

33:11.336 --> 33:13.159
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, just time spent with the family.

33:13.179 --> 33:19.148
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't need that much eventfulness in my life going forward.

33:19.752 --> 33:47.295
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm happy to work on the podcast, you know, spend time with my family, C. Cody get older, get her into, you know, whatever programs, sports, et cetera, be supportive of her, watch her get older, and hey, you know, if I'm lucky enough to live that long, and if she makes that decision as well, maybe I'll see some grand babies one day, you know, maybe that's not out of the question.

33:47.630 --> 33:54.703
[SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, it's easy to kind of be invested in life right now for me at least.

33:54.835 --> 34:00.846
[SPEAKER_01]: But I do know the death weights around the corner for everyone.

34:01.868 --> 34:09.782
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we had a death, not my direct family and my wife's direct family.

34:10.604 --> 34:17.957
[SPEAKER_01]: And so part of the reason why she's at her sisters is she is making an appearance at a celebration of life.

34:20.215 --> 34:23.479
[SPEAKER_01]: And older figure, but not too old.

34:23.519 --> 34:25.922
[SPEAKER_01]: It's still kind of tragically young in his 60s.

34:26.563 --> 34:29.087
[SPEAKER_01]: Very beloved man, he died.

34:29.147 --> 34:30.809
[SPEAKER_01]: He was founded his yard.

34:32.050 --> 34:33.692
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was a big surprise.

34:34.614 --> 34:36.997
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that's the other reason why this is on my mind.

34:37.337 --> 34:41.783
[SPEAKER_01]: Because by all counts, you know, previous to that, he had been walking around just fine.

34:42.484 --> 34:44.907
[SPEAKER_01]: And then one day, death just came and took him.

34:45.376 --> 34:50.628
[SPEAKER_01]: And just like that, the family won't be having too many more memories with him.

34:50.668 --> 34:54.757
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's very sad, uh, because like I said, he was very beloved.

34:55.679 --> 35:00.710
[SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, I can see why this is something I'm thinking about with that as well.

35:01.953 --> 35:03.857
[SPEAKER_01]: But what about you, listener?

35:04.276 --> 35:24.073
[SPEAKER_01]: do you still think about death a lot particularly if let's say you're an older listener when you're younger I feel like it's a very common right you're still coming to terms with it but I'm curious you know I don't know if you want to leave a comment or whatever is death something you think about a lot when you lay a better night when you close your eyes

35:24.442 --> 35:25.685
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think about eternity?

35:25.966 --> 35:27.029
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think about death?

35:27.190 --> 35:28.654
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think about what comes after?

35:28.714 --> 35:32.966
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you secure in your feelings of what comes after?

35:33.648 --> 35:35.573
[SPEAKER_01]: Be it atheist or religious?

35:36.756 --> 35:39.885
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you feel sense of peace when you think about it?

35:40.321 --> 35:46.068
[SPEAKER_01]: This is something that I'm curious about, but it's not something you could exactly ask people at random.

35:46.429 --> 35:54.539
[SPEAKER_01]: When you sit down with your friend for a casual conversation, it's not always the easiest to just be like hey, what do you think about when you die?

35:54.559 --> 35:56.442
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you think happens?

35:56.862 --> 35:58.164
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think about dying a lot?

35:58.184 --> 36:01.108
[SPEAKER_01]: Just imagine just casually bringing that up to your friends.

36:01.769 --> 36:06.615
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a few beers deep talk, and so it's not always

36:06.595 --> 36:14.550
[SPEAKER_01]: The easiest approach that subject, so I genuinely would love to hear from you guys as far as that's concerned.

36:15.532 --> 36:17.937
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I was thinking about it as well.

36:19.941 --> 36:26.393
[SPEAKER_01]: You think about it like sometimes you watch movies where death occurs.

36:26.491 --> 36:31.598
[SPEAKER_01]: And it could be handled so casually, sort of brushed over a lot.

36:31.618 --> 36:33.601
[SPEAKER_01]: There might be like a montage or something.

36:33.661 --> 36:36.265
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, you do get the movies that kind of heavily lean into it.

36:36.365 --> 36:48.482
[SPEAKER_01]: But for the most part, movies, if there's like a death in mid-movie, a lot of times it'll be for like the shock, and then you're on to the next scene.

36:48.918 --> 36:56.589
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, one of the things I do try to do with Obscura, I did that BUNSFORD case, Jessica Lonsford.

36:57.690 --> 37:01.776
[SPEAKER_01]: And I do try to add gravity to the victims.

37:03.438 --> 37:05.020
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't always accomplish that.

37:05.040 --> 37:11.169
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes details can be sparse and limited, or sometimes an episode can just take you in a different direction.

37:12.070 --> 37:12.951
[SPEAKER_01]: But...

37:13.066 --> 37:23.037
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, using the Jessica Bonesford episodes as an example, when I can, you know, I do like to, you know, add some gravity to the situation.

37:23.057 --> 37:24.679
[SPEAKER_01]: I do like to lean into it.

37:24.799 --> 37:36.653
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a healthy, you know, as consumers of true crime, to remind ourselves from time to time, that there are consequences to these cases.

37:36.853 --> 37:40.457
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not just a who-done-it, it's not just a mystery.

37:40.538 --> 37:47.292
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know I talked about that in the episode because sometimes that's something that can drive me crazy, be it the...

37:47.795 --> 37:50.400
[SPEAKER_01]: iTunes or views are the occasional email.

37:50.680 --> 37:55.829
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, people will write me a lie and say, why do you do spoilers at the start of your episodes?

37:55.929 --> 37:57.151
[SPEAKER_01]: So often, you know?

37:57.772 --> 38:04.003
[SPEAKER_01]: And look, sometimes episodes will be structured in a way where you find out who is doing this stuff later.

38:04.063 --> 38:06.848
[SPEAKER_01]: It really just depends on how it presents itself.

38:06.928 --> 38:10.815
[SPEAKER_01]: But for the most part, that is not something

38:10.795 --> 38:20.587
[SPEAKER_01]: that I'm worried about the sort of mystery aspect of true crime that's not really what obscure is or ever has been.

38:20.607 --> 38:28.237
[SPEAKER_01]: A one of the times the episodes will start with the biographical profile of who the killer is.

38:29.018 --> 38:39.992
[SPEAKER_01]: So as the episode goes on, you have a better understanding of why they might

38:39.972 --> 38:42.815
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you might just have a little bit better of an idea.

38:42.855 --> 38:52.304
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I would much rather jump into the childhood and the psychological backgrounds, et cetera, and build the episodes that way.

38:52.364 --> 39:00.652
[SPEAKER_01]: To me, it's almost a little strange to lean heavily into these sort of cliff hangers.

39:01.332 --> 39:07.178
[SPEAKER_01]: I just don't think narrative-wise that's something I particularly enjoy.

39:07.225 --> 39:09.409
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've, I've, it's no secret.

39:09.449 --> 39:12.695
[SPEAKER_01]: I do enjoy, uh, for example, Stephen King, right?

39:13.917 --> 39:21.029
[SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, it's been a minute since I've read one of his books, but he was one of the guys that got me through some dark times when I was a kid.

39:22.131 --> 39:25.878
[SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, I'll always defend his work.

39:26.559 --> 39:31.748
[SPEAKER_01]: I know people have their criticisms of his work, and that's fair, you know, you don't have to like everything.

39:32.032 --> 39:57.145
[SPEAKER_01]: But what I didn't want to say is that he's one of those authors that plays with structure a lot Sometimes he will rob the reader of that sort of you know build to what's gonna happen like a character We'll walk out of a scene and then Stephen King will end the chapter by saying and then they never saw him again

39:57.817 --> 40:01.204
[SPEAKER_01]: and so you're like, oh wow, okay, so he's about to die.

40:01.985 --> 40:14.070
[SPEAKER_01]: But also, what that does to you, at first, you're like, whoa, whoa, that means, you know, he's gonna die, but then when you read on, you have this like sense of overwhelming dread of like,

40:14.776 --> 40:24.847
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so how are they, how is he going to go or, you know, like, in what way is this character going to die, or, you know, how does it all go down?

40:25.708 --> 40:33.096
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when you see it from that approach, you understand that not everything has to be accomplished the same way.

40:33.136 --> 40:38.242
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes when you approach an narrative differently, it gives you a different feeling.

40:39.023 --> 40:41.205
[SPEAKER_01]: So, for example,

40:41.185 --> 40:49.172
[SPEAKER_01]: in the ones where, excuse me, in the ones for an episode, you knew who was going to be the whole time.

40:49.232 --> 40:54.148
[SPEAKER_01]: And what I think about what I'm making that episode is

40:54.415 --> 40:59.924
[SPEAKER_01]: It gives you a sort of sour feeling in the pit of your stomach because you know what it's building to.

41:00.525 --> 41:02.027
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what's going to happen.

41:02.989 --> 41:06.655
[SPEAKER_01]: You know that people are going to be hurt in this monster's wake.

41:07.276 --> 41:14.247
[SPEAKER_01]: And so as the episode presses on and this person gets bolder and more and more dangerous.

41:14.227 --> 41:25.605
[SPEAKER_01]: You sort of sigh and frustration at the way the system sort of failed the family members in terms of stopping this guy, all the, you know, freebies he was given.

41:25.625 --> 41:34.859
[SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, speaking of death, I didn't want to mention, my feelings on the death penalty continue to evolve.

41:35.581 --> 41:37.804
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sure some people have kind of noticed.

41:39.438 --> 41:43.135
[SPEAKER_01]: And let me explain, it's a pretty balanced take, I think.

41:43.717 --> 41:46.309
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you don't want to hear of this type of talk,

41:46.795 --> 42:03.293
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, if you don't want me to have a firm stance on anything, you can go ahead and turn it off now, but I wanted to say that where I am emotionally when it comes to the death penalty, I've always been hung up on personally the fact that they can get it wrong, right?

42:03.353 --> 42:14.305
[SPEAKER_01]: So for me, if there's ever even an ounce of doubt, I think that the death penalty should be withheld because there has been a surprising number of people that have been executed,

42:14.285 --> 42:19.472
[SPEAKER_01]: and then exonerated post-shoot post-mortem.

42:20.173 --> 42:24.700
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when you think about that, it's pretty terrifying, right?

42:24.780 --> 42:31.109
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, blood on the taxpayers' hands, and blood on the government's hands, killing innocent people.

42:31.289 --> 42:36.496
[SPEAKER_01]: But this is where my opinions on this had sort of evolved.

42:37.297 --> 42:42.705
[SPEAKER_01]: When I was younger, I was pretty staunchly overall anti-death penalty.

42:42.753 --> 42:51.987
[SPEAKER_01]: But I have come to a place now where I think that if somebody is dead to rights, like they did it.

42:52.085 --> 43:02.240
[SPEAKER_01]: They, you know, without a doubt, they did this murder of maybe they confessed or maybe there's just absolutely overwhelming evidence.

43:03.241 --> 43:05.685
[SPEAKER_01]: A good example is, so let's say mass shooters.

43:06.446 --> 43:11.353
[SPEAKER_01]: Some jerky, you know, puts a bunch of guns into a duffel bag.

43:11.794 --> 43:17.502
[SPEAKER_01]: They go to the local elementary school and they just open fire, right?

43:17.482 --> 43:21.986
[SPEAKER_01]: and they hurt and kill a lot of people than all the families connected.

43:22.867 --> 43:27.691
[SPEAKER_01]: In my opinion, I don't think that we should sweat it.

43:27.991 --> 43:31.474
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that mass shooters should be an instant death penalty.

43:33.456 --> 43:36.839
[SPEAKER_01]: We just shouldn't even waste the trial time or anything.

43:37.079 --> 43:39.181
[SPEAKER_01]: They were like, you know, they did it.

43:39.301 --> 43:40.783
[SPEAKER_01]: We all knew, know they did it.

43:40.963 --> 43:43.305
[SPEAKER_01]: It was out in the open, everyone saw them do it.

43:43.826 --> 43:46.628
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not worried about it, right?

43:47.030 --> 43:53.499
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to waste feeling any certain of way toward someone that hurt so many people.

43:54.220 --> 43:59.048
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I guess that's where sometimes my feelings on this stuff has evolved.

43:59.688 --> 44:05.477
[SPEAKER_01]: Because when I was younger, I was completely totally against it.

44:05.517 --> 44:07.860
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you are, that's fair too, right?

44:08.561 --> 44:12.087
[SPEAKER_01]: We all have our own opinions on this stuff.

44:12.107 --> 44:13.088
[SPEAKER_01]: And

44:13.068 --> 44:17.315
[SPEAKER_01]: These discussions are nuanced, so don't think that I'm judging you for that.

44:17.375 --> 44:19.378
[SPEAKER_01]: And I ask for you to do the same thing for me.

44:20.240 --> 44:25.068
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, yeah, I promise I'm not trying to be a fence sitter on this.

44:26.009 --> 44:38.670
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I said, my only hang-up is when there's an ounce of doubt, because there are cases where there are, and they didn't get them dead to rights, and a lot of the evidence is purely circumstantial.

44:38.650 --> 44:46.943
[SPEAKER_01]: And in those cases, I don't know how you can defend the death penalty, but again, dead to write stuff.

44:47.784 --> 44:48.806
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not worried about it.

44:50.008 --> 44:51.450
[SPEAKER_01]: I just can't possibly care.

44:52.452 --> 45:01.426
[SPEAKER_01]: When I see, I'll cover an episode for example, and there'll be some brutal child abusing murder, right?

45:01.946 --> 45:04.911
[SPEAKER_01]: That really hurt some kids.

45:05.431 --> 45:16.113
[SPEAKER_01]: And there are people protesting, you know, for this person, that to me, it's like, man, your time is better served elsewhere.

45:16.174 --> 45:24.210
[SPEAKER_01]: I promise you, there are a lot of more people out there that deserve it than that monster.

45:24.952 --> 45:25.954
[SPEAKER_01]: And so.

45:26.069 --> 45:27.031
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know.

45:27.512 --> 45:29.577
[SPEAKER_01]: My opinion's on this kind of stuff.

45:29.597 --> 45:30.398
[SPEAKER_01]: Always evolving.

45:31.040 --> 45:32.423
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's kind of important though.

45:32.964 --> 45:39.578
[SPEAKER_01]: I think in some ways the older you get, you should look back on your previous stance and be like, wow, I'm a bit of a different person.

45:40.300 --> 45:44.449
[SPEAKER_01]: I know for me when I have Facebook memories and they're like 10 years older, something.

45:45.577 --> 45:47.140
[SPEAKER_01]: There were a lot of cringe deletes.

45:47.461 --> 45:48.382
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll just put it that way.

45:48.903 --> 45:50.446
[SPEAKER_01]: Where I'm like, what was I thinking?

45:51.328 --> 45:53.672
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just clicked the lead on it.

45:54.354 --> 46:00.265
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, yeah, who knows how I'll feel five years from now from it, but I don't know.

46:00.525 --> 46:06.336
[SPEAKER_01]: Right now, I'm a bit of 50, 50 on it, given the circumstances being different.

46:06.805 --> 46:08.708
[SPEAKER_01]: But what do you think, listener?

46:08.988 --> 46:09.689
[SPEAKER_01]: That's another thing.

46:10.070 --> 46:16.159
[SPEAKER_01]: If you wanted to comment on that, if you have a strong opinion on it, there'll be no judgment for me.

46:16.219 --> 46:19.524
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd be happy to hear what you think.

46:20.285 --> 46:25.133
[SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, this has been a fireside chat that sort of loosely based around death.

46:26.294 --> 46:27.897
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope it hasn't bummed you out.

46:28.778 --> 46:31.142
[SPEAKER_01]: For me personally, it's an interesting subject.

46:31.242 --> 46:32.644
[SPEAKER_01]: It always has been,

46:32.928 --> 46:49.877
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm probably gonna leave some of the like vocal stumbles I did in the episode, try to clear out any coughs I did or anything like that because I'd like to get back to, you know, working on episodes, well, I still have the rest of the night, but I don't know.

46:50.158 --> 46:58.412
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're interested in more of these open subject fireside chats that are kind of late night rambles.

46:58.477 --> 47:01.622
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me know because I'm not opposed to doing these.

47:01.663 --> 47:08.254
[SPEAKER_01]: It's good to get some thoughts off my chest and kind of throw them out into the universe.

47:08.775 --> 47:11.540
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you guys like hearing it, I don't mind publishing it.

47:12.361 --> 47:14.966
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, I think that wraps things up.

47:15.567 --> 47:18.612
[SPEAKER_01]: I thank you for listening and keep the fire burning.